Want Some Answers ???
Hi Paul, you wrote,
>>Dear Dr Mark, I have made my decision. The Bible is the final authoruty. You must also decide who has the final authority, the apostacy or the bible.<<
I think your ‘decision’ was made long before you started writing. You hold with Christadelphianism on every verse, word and chapter. You “obviously believe the CD's understanding the truth or…would not be part of them”. You do NOT ‘question their teachings’ or ‘put them to the proof’. They are NEVER wrong in your eyes. You follow John Thomas without deviation. You wrote,
>>Revelation 17 speaks about a great whore that sitteth upon many waters. She is called the "Mother of harlots" The woman was "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" which is built on "seven mountains" The seven hilled city was Rome, the "Holy Roman empire", the Catholic apostacy. This is what reformers like Luther and Tyndale Recognised. Who are the daughters? Those who believe the same basic doctrines. Let' mention some of the doctrines Catholics and "Born again" Christians have in common. The immortal soul (thou shall not surely die) The Trinity ( There is one God and one mediater between God and man, the man Jesus Christ) Heaven going (the meek shall inherit the earth) I could go on but I'm sure you get the point.<<
Reading into the text something not there? - There’s no list of doctrines. Having things in common doesn't mean they are the same. But regarding the doctrine of salvation I would say Catholics have more in common with CD's (baptism, meritorious works, justifying grace, salvation uncertain). And Luther and Tyndale would say CD's are among the apostate ‘daughters’. Scripture describes apostates (Deut.13:13; Heb.3:12) they’re not ‘born-again’ Christians (1 Jn.4:7 5:4). They never belonged to Christ (1 Jn.2:19). I guess that those who qualify as apostates have refused the new birth (Jn.3:3) refused the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:9) and refused Jesus as the Truth (Jn.14:6). You wrote,
>>You are correct that Paul was refering to the O.T. The fact that the Jews did not become wise unto salvation does not invalidate the truth that the Scriptures can make us wise unto salvation. However you nullify this truth when you claim that you need the Scriptures and a miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit in order to interpret them. Why then so many diverse beliefs within the "born again" movement? It is because you are in error. "By their fruits ye shall know them"<<
If Scripture is your final authority why not accept the One who is the Truth? The Truth is NOT set of ‘teachings’ from John Thomas. Jesus is the Truth (Jn.14:6) He is the Saviour. Salvation is in Him (Ac.4:12). Scripture should point you to Him, not a religious system of 'beliefs' to work your way to God. Don't worry about 'diverse beliefs' of others, when you refuse to accept the Truth. Those born again are not a ‘movement’ they are the ‘church’. “The church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven” (Heb.12:23).
You say I ‘nullify this truth’ by claiming the indwelling Holy Spirit. How? Why ignore the entire selection of verses I quoted? The indwelling Holy Spirit is the continual experience of those born-again (Eph5:18 Ph.1:11). Jesus said, "the Spirit of truth...he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you" (Jn.14:17). If He is the Great Teacher and Interpreter (Jn.14:26. 15:26 16:13-15) CD's are missing out. Jesus said when the Spirit would “come he will guide you into all truth” (Jn.16:13). ‘The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children" (Rom 8:16). How can you ignore the the holy Spirit and be obedient to God? (Isa.63:10). You wrote,
>>1 Tim 3:16 reads "God manifest in flesh". Why do you twist scripture to fit your preconceived ideas? What good does it do? You are only deceiving yourself. The Pharisees believed in works of law, both that of Moses and that of their own making which made Gods word null and void.<<
Regarding 1 tim. I didn’t use quotation marks. But the Bible plainly teaches God was in Christ. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (2 Cor 5:19). “He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him." (Jn1:10-11 see also Jn.10:38 14:10,11). So I didn’t twist or deceive.
Yes the Pharisees had a religion that resulted in no one “entering into the Kingdom of God” (Mt.23:13) based on their works, teachings and righteousness. They would NOT honour the Son as they honoured the Father (Jn.5:23-24) and made God's Word void. Just like Christadelphians. You wrote,
>>You have given me many points to deal with so it will take a while to get through them all. One last point. You Claim that if CD's knew biblical Greek they would not be CD's, when I said there were two choices in John 3:16 Eternal life or Perish. Was William Tyndale a Greek scholar? Maybe he was a Christadelphian.<<
It’s correct scholars of the Greek NT don’t support CD doctrine. And if you could read NT Greek you wouldn’t either. And, you will need to provide another scholar of the Greek NT. Tyndale would be banned from the ‘Ecclesia’. He believed in a real devil, heaven, hell, demons, angels, everlasting damnation, the trinity, justification by faith alone, the Person of the Holy Spirit, His indwelling, new birth and heaven going. You wrote,
>>Let me quote him: And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be) And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181. Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innate immortality....Thus The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.—lbid. Yours truly, Paul<<
Who altered the text of these quotes? Amazing how CD’s are notorious for quoting from unavailable publications. Quoting from obscure sources that can’t be verified or few can check. They half-quote, distort and misquote. The quotes are HALF accurate and sentences out of order. Not the way Tyndale wrote. The issue is part of a discussion about PURGATORY -- which More complains that Tyndale denies. More charges: "Item, that all souls lie and slppe till doomsday." And so the argument you quoted follows. The marginal note, which may or may not be Tyndale's reads: "The sould departed rest at God's will and pleasure." Also, your quotation omits the second very important sentence (near the head of the argument): "What God doth with them, that shall we know when we come to them."
If the marginal note is Tyndale's, it indicates he was uncertain about the actual current state of the dead. This would not be so surprising. There are similar quotations from Luther and others reformers of that day that are uncertain. The Reformers were trying to ferret out truth from religious superstition and everything was open to question. The entirety of the old orthodoxy had to be reviewed as to its scriptural basis. In their lifetimes they only got so far. Tyndale wrote,
"And I protest before God, and our Savior Christ, and all that believe in him, that I hold of the souls that are departed as much as may be proved by manifest and open scripture, and think the souls departed in the faith of Christ, and love of the law of God, to be in no worse case than the soul of Christ was from the time that he delivered his spirit into the hands of his Father until the resurrection of his body in glory and immortality (See 1 Pt.3:19). Nevertheless, I confess openly, that I am not persuaded that they be already in the full glory that Christ is in, or the elect angels of God are in. Neither is it any article of my faith: for if it so were, I see not but then the preaching of the resurrection of the flesh were a thing in vain. Notwithstanding yet I am ready to believe it, if it may be proved with open scripture." (DOCTRINAL TREATISES, by W.Tyndale, Edited for the Parker Society, by. H. Walter, B.D. F.R.S.)
(I underline and include 1 Pt.3). And I agree with Tyndale. The souls of the departed are with Christ, although not yet with their new resurrected bodies. Nothing Tyndale wrote indicated death (or ‘perish’) meant extinction of the soul. Nothing suggests at death “the spiritual soul” ceased to exist contrary to what scholars of the Greek say today. “90%” of the NT KJV is Tyndale’s work. Many verses indicate the soul survives death (Rich man and Lazarus, Lk.16. Mt.10:28, etc). Tyndale would have known and translated these words/verses from the Greek. He must have known ‘to depart, and to be with Christ’. The KJV NT indicates what Tyndale believed. He also wrote,
“For natural reason ought to teach us that the outward, corporal, and bodily thing cannot help the spiritual soul…….that your souls within may be sprinkled, and washed through faith, with the blood of the Son of God….“I am with you always, even unto the end of the world;” which may well be understood….by his spiritual being with us by faith, and in his Spirit…wicked heretics which denied Christ to be very God…..there is the Godhead and the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost…..our kingdom is not on the earth, even so we ought not to direct our prayers to any God in earth, but up where our kingdom is, and whither our Redeemer and Savior is gone, and there sitteth on the right hand of his Father.. Christ's, merits have made me heir thereof; he is both door and way thitherwards: neither that I look for an higher room in heaven”.
One last point. Mankind has an instinctive, universal and persistent belief of a life after death. Yet the first Christians rejected annihilatism as a biblical doctrine. The OT has the idea Pr.12:28 ‘not-death’ (al-mawet) literally, ‘In the way of righteousness is (eternal) life; the treading of her path is not death (= immortality)’. The OT does express positive hope of the hereafter (Jb.19:26 Ps.17:15 49:15 73:24 Isa.26:19 53:10-12 Dn.12:2,13). Three Greek terms express the idea of immortality in the NT athanasia (deathlessness as in 1Cor.15:53-54); aphtharsia (incorruptibility Rom.2:7); aphthartos (incorruptible 1Pt.1:4). You can check any Greek NT Dictionary to prove this. Immortality applies to the body not the soul (being immaterial and indivisible by nature. It is independent of the body and indestructible) [Mt.10:28 Lk.12:4].