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Hi Paul,

My, my, these mails are going all over the place. You wrote,


>>Dr Mark, I thought you had sent me a chapter from "Christendom astray". I rushed to find my copy thinking Roberts is an heritic! But it's just your fantasy borrowed from the apostacy. Let's go through it.<<

Yes and CD's follow the doctrine according to Roberts on every point. The Bible isn’t the final authority, but Roberts. CD’s don’t think for themselves they are told what to believe.

And why did chapter 16 disappear from his book? It was his 'fantasy' interpretations. He predicted Christ's return. And the whole chapter of preaching and interpretation was proven wrong so CD’s deleted it. Robert's thought he knew more than Jesus? “But of that day and hour knows no man, not even the angels in heaven, but my Father only” (Mt.24:36).

How many false prophesies does it take before one is regarded as a 'false prophet' or ‘heretic’? "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deut.18:22).

Roberts thought he knew, but he didn’t, Satan deceived him. His fallen nature (the devil's possession) was unregenerate – dead to the things of God. Those who think Satan doesn’t exist are deceived. You replied,

>>Interesting. The clergy teach that that their devil is second only to their Trinity in power. Almost if not quite omnipopent; at all events, powerfull enough to hold in eternal captivity and torture the vast majority of the human beings God has made.<<

The Bible (not the clergy) is the final authority. Don't worry about “ the clergy” the Bible indicates “the devil” exists. And even common sense!! Those who think about life admit there is an evil in his world that can't be dismissed simply as a 'bad nature' in man. There’s an evil greater in power and influence than simply wrong thoughts in humans. Not only does the Bible say so, but it's quite permissible to talk in terms of an ultimate evil. Something’s are always (regardless of circumstance and mans thoughts) wrong and evil. This evil exists outside of and regardless of man. Disorder, corruption and lawlessness cannot be dismissed as something only in the mind of man, nor is God to blame. Even animals can sense an evil event forth coming, just as man (a higher creature) by his spiritual nature can and does realise an evil being.

Tribes who have had no contact with the Bible or Christians have universally held to a belief in the existence of evil and a Great Spirit. But it's only in the Bible that we have the revelation of why, how and who. The existence of a devil is a spiritual revelation. Those WITHOUT their eyes opened to spiritual things (ie. CD’s) will always walk in the dark regarding spiritual realities (1 Cor.2:14).

>>He either holds them with God's consent of against it. If he hold them with it, God and the devil are made copartners; and God is made by their traditions to have created an enormous multitude of men, women and children for no other destiny than eternal torments; which gives the lie to the scriptures that "God is love".<<

Why not believe Scripture, not ‘clergy’ or men? This is a problem with you always following men (clergy, Pentecostals, or Roberts) before taking notice of the Bible. Might explain your confusion?

And strange logic indeed that if God punishes sin, then the devil and God are ‘
co-partners’. Or ‘God’s consent’ is given for Satan to ‘hold’ people under his power. Stubborn men go their own way which leads to destruction. "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" (2 Tim 2:26).

'
Eternal torment' gives the proof to God’s perfect justice. And we should BELIEVE when He says He will punish sinners. There are numerous examples in Scripture when God fore told the most horrific punishments of 'men, women, and children,' and they happened (Lev.26:18,24 Isa.10:12 13:11 24:21 26:21 Jer.9:25 11:22 21:14 23:34 25:12 27:8 30:20 36:31 44:29 46:25 Hos.4:9 4:14 12:2 Am.3:2 Zep.1:8-9,12 8:14 etc). The pain suffered was real and those who said God wouldn't, were wrong. Seen repeatedly in the OT, don't ignore it.

'
God is love’, but also just and He punishes sin. He would be evil not to punish evil. God is perfect in His nature, with perfect love and perfect justice. Even the cross (the clearest picture of God’s love), has the demonstration of punishment for sin. But I guess the spiritual dead (like CD's) can't understand spiritual things, as good and evil.

>>However if the devil hold the "damned" against God's consent, then the devil is more powerful then God!<<

Clearly you don't want to understand any doctrinal position than your own. This kind of statement is usually said by those who don’t know what the Bible says. If men are captive to idols ‘against God’s consent’ I wouldn’t say that means idols are more powerful than God. Then why would you believe it?

>>Why then was it that the Spirit laid hold upon death-stricken and corruptable flesh and blood, which is so weak and frail, called "the seed of Abraham"<<

This lacks meaning. A question, statement, what’s it saying? Is it ‘why did God become flesh? (Jn.1:14). The answers obvious, to fulfil Scripture and “save His people from their sins” (Mt.1:28). But in CD doctrine, they have God joining Himself with Satan (human nature) which is utter nonsense. I mentioned about SATAN'S ORIGIN that he is a created being according to Col.1:16 but the time is unknown. You replied,

>>I have read the verse several times. The word "Satan" is not in this verse. If it indeed was then he was "created by him and for him" But what was it that was created by him and for him? "Thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" No supernatural fallen angel in this verse. You have to read that into this verse. If you read this verse in its context you can see that it is talking about the new creation of which Christ is the "firstborn"<<

If Satan is not a created being, then ultimately CD’s blame God for man’s sinful nature and so God must have caused man to sin. This is so far removed from the truth it is unbelievable. Of course, Satan is included in Col.1:16.

"For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him".

It says "all things" not something’s. Just because you can’t find Satan's name (or the details to whatever) doesn't mean God didn’t create it. ‘All things’ mean ‘all things’. Words mean what they say. Satan is described in Ezek 28:12-19 and to that you reply,

>>You have to wrest these verses from their context in order for them to fit your theory. The Word "Satan" does not appear in this chapter. Please read the entire chapter and chapter 27. Look at Ezekiel 27:2 ..."oh Tyrus, oh thou hast said, I am perfect in beauty" Ch 28:12 "Son of man take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus..." "Eden is mentioned in 2 Kings 9:12; 2 Chron. 29:12, Eze 27:23 etc. It does not refer to the "Garden of Eden".<<

So now you’re telling me ‘the king of Tyrus’ was in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve and he’s really a “guardian cherub” (28:14). And originally ‘the king of Tyrus’ was “perfect in all his ways” (28:15). In fact, the “model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty” (28:12). And he lived in heaven but God discovered sin in him so cast him out from His presence (28:16-18). If you believe that, you will believe anything. Why not accept the fact some Scriptures have a spiritual revelation about spiritual things? Only CD’s can make nonsense out of Scripture that has a deeper and more profound application. Many Scriptures have a spiritual lesson to draw from the text other than a single application. Satan is also described in Isa, 14:12-17 -

>>Again no mention of "Satan" or the "devil" in this passage. Again you have ripped this passage out of its context in order to fit what "they" told you to believe. Look at V 4 "take up this proverb against the king of Babylon..." V 16 ..."is this the man..." Any decent commentry will tell you this chapter is all about the king of Babylon.<<

Any decent commentary? “Verse 12. O Lucifer, son of the morning— The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render ls heilel as signifying Lucifer”. Another commentary – “Morning star, son of the dawn’ a phrase which equates him with a deity”. But I don’t need to consult a commentary here - “How you have fallen from heaven” (Isa 14:12). Are you saying the king of Babylon came down from heaven but the Son of God didn't? Wesley says “bright star, that ushers in the morning; but is here metaphorically taken for the mighty king of Babylon”. It's quite acceptable to believe some Scriptures have a double fulfilment. Eg. Many things said about Roman rulers can be said about the anti-Christ. Since Satan has been cast out of heaven he now makes his abode in the air, Eph.2:2.

>>Again no Satan or devil mentioned. You have to read that into this passage. No mention of Heaven either<<

There is a clear reference to the devil here – “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient”. Or is that just a bad human nature that’s rules in the clouds? John Thomas regarded this verse as pagan that should be removed from our thinking. He argued science had the answers and the supernatural is not the explanation. He insisted materialism is all there is. But most commentaries disagree with CD’s on this verse -

Satan is termed prince of the power of the air, because the air is supposed to be a region in which malicious spirits dwell, all of whom are under the direction and influence of Satan, their chief. The spirit that now worketh tou nun energounto
The operations of the prince of the aerial powers are not confined to that region; he has another sphere of action, viz. the wicked heart of man, and in this he works with energy. He seldom inspires indifference to religion; the subjects in whom he works are either determinate opposes of true religion, or they are systematic and energetic transgressors of God’s laws.” (A.Clarke Com. Vol.6a).

Another passage referring to Satan is Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them". Note vs7 “The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." You reply –

>>You have to read into this passage that this event took place in Heaven. The passage does not mention heaven. You do not have to be in Heaven to stand before the Lord see Deut 19:17. The word "Satan" is a hebrew word sometimes translated and sometimes not. The first occurance of the hebrew word is in Numbers 22:22 Refering to an angel of the Lord!<

I read the simple and obvious meaning from Jb.1:6-7. It’s a heavenly gathering. Mentioned are Angels, Satan and God. It’s Deut.19:17 that doesn’t mention ‘heaven’. But Deut.4:39, 26:15 says “the LORD is God in heaven above” “Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place”. In Job what took place was a discussion about the affairs of men on earth from a far higher perspective than the earthly realm. From heaven, God’s abiding place this discussion occurs.

Cd’s think Satan wasn’t Satan. He was Mr Smith, a travelling salesman that didn’t like Job. They think God slew Job’s servants, sheep, sons and daughters and smote Job with boils. All to avoid the clear and obvious and (like you) to take “Satan” out of the book Job. You wouldn’t have a clue about the Hebrew word Satan!! The moment we consult the Hebrew CD doctrine becomes ludicrous. A Clarke, scholar of biblical languages writes,

And Satan came also - This word also is emphatic in the original, ys hassatan,
the Satan, or the adversary; translated by the Septuagint o diaboloV The original word is preserved by the Chaldee, Syriac, and Arabic; indeed, in each of them the word signifies an adversary. St. Peter, 1 Peter 5:8, plainly refers to this place; and fully proves that yŤs hassatan, which he literally translates o antidikoV, the ADVERSARY, is no other than o diaboloV, the DEVIL, or chief of bad demons, which he adds to others by way of explanation. There are many diamoneV, demons, mentioned in Scripture, but the word Satan or devil is never found in the originals of the Old and New Testaments in the plural number. Hence we reasonably infer, that all evil spirits are under the government of ONE chief, the DEVIL, who is more powerful and more wicked than the rest. From the GREEK "diaboloV comes the LATIN Diabolus, the SPANISH-Diablo, FRENCH-Diable, ITALIAN-Diavolo, German-Teuffel, DUTCH-Duivel, the ANGLO-SAXON (A.S.), and the ENGLISH-Devil, which some would derive from the compound THE-EVIL; o ponhroV, the evil one, or wicked one.”

In Num.22:22 of course God can also be the "
adversary." When Balaam went to curse Israel, God warned him not to. And his “anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary against him". Yes God stood as an "adversary" that in no way denies the existence of ‘Satan the adversary and accuser’.

>>In Zach 3 who was the "Satan" Was it a Supernatural fallen angel or a human adversory. See Ezra 4:1-4. You must interpret scripture from scripture. What you do is to find isolated passages taken out of context that seem to support your pre conceived idea.<<

It’s because we ‘interpret Scripture’ by Scripture we find that the existence of Satan (the great adversary) is not a “pre-conceived idea”. It’s a traditional doctrine of the Christian church held by the early church fathers and taught from Scripture.

>>Revelation is a highly symbolic book which is only for Gods "Servants". You do not have the keys to unlock this chapter as you do not understand the first principles of the oricles of God.<<

So only CD's can ‘understand' the Bible. Sounds strange for those that don’t have the Holy Spirit to think they have the keys to Scripture. Jesus has ‘the keys’ to ‘understanding’ (1 Jn.5:20) not a little group.

>>If though you are willing to humble yourself there is a "hidden treasure" to be found which only"few" will find.You seem like a nice young man. Very zealous. "Seek and you will find" Forget what you learned in the universities of this world. They are only "blind leaders of the blind". I want to help you. I mean it.<<

The problem Paul is you ignore what reveals the error of Christadelphianism. And your reply only answers side-issues or relates indirectly. You ignore pages of my mails only to send more information to cover the flaws in Christadelphianism. Then pretend all is well. Ie willfully blind. You send lots of emails many without substance and photocopied from somewhere but never put your back into a descent reply!!

My days of writing to you are numbered because of this pretence. It won’t do, you’re not fooling anyone. It's likely you won’t even read this. So fail to realise why I’m not interested in writing to those who are not prepared to work through points that seriously question what they believe. You won’t be wasting my time when I have plenty of mail from those prepared to answer mail properly.


>>Look up the word "devil" in Srrongs. How many times does it occour in the OT. What about "Devils" Look up the meaning of the words. What do they mean?<<

And if I do and show you what they mean you ignore it!! I could scream Paul because I know full well of the huge detail I could go into AND YOU would ignore it and respond by side-stepping.

In the KJV 'Devil’s' occurs 4 times in the OT (61 whole Bible) and 'Satan' 19 times, 'serpent' 30 times. Never once do we find any support for CD doctrine of 'no devil’. And we not one scholar of the Greek or Hebrew supports CD doctrine. Here's what we find with Strong. He never denies the existence of the Devil. True of all Greek and Hebrew scholars.

daimonion, -dahee-mon’-ee-on; neuter of a derivative of (daimwn); a daemonic being; by extensive a deity: - devil, god.
daimoniwdhV, --- dahee-mon-ee-o’-dace; from (daimonion) and (daimwn); daemon-like: - devilish.
daimwnl - dah’ee-mown; from daiw (to distribute fortunes); a daemon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil.
diaboloV, - dee-ab’-ol-os; from (diaballw); a traducer; specially Satan [compare Hebrew (satan)]: - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
Satan - sat-an’; of Hebrew origin [Hebrew (satan)]; Satan, i.e. the devil: — Satan. Compare (SatanaV).
SatanaV, - sat-an-as’; of Chaldee origin corresponding to (Satan) (with the definite affix); the accuser, i.e. the devil: - Satan.

Strong says “Satan (saw-tawn'); an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good KJV-- adversary, Satan, withstand”. (1 Chr.21:1) And Mt.4:1 Strong writes – “diabolos (dee-ab'-ol-os); from a traducer; specially, Satan”. He believes it’s a person. A few other scholars of the Greek and Hebrew. W.E. Vine –

SATAN satanas, a Greek form derived from the Aramaic (Heb., Satan), "an adversary," is used (a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num. 22:22 (the first occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, eg 1 Sam. 29:4; Ps. 38:20; 71:13 four in Ps. 109 (c) of "Satan," the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times in the OT; in Zech.3:1 where the name receives its interpretation, "to be (his) adversary," RV (see marg.; KJV, "to resist him"). In the NT the word is always used of "Satan," the adversary (a) of God and Christ, eg Mt.4:10; 12:26; Mk.1:13; 3:23,26; 4:15; Lk.4:8 (in some mss.); 11:18; 22:3; Jn.13:27; (b) of His people, e. g., Lk.22:31; As.5:3; Rom.16:20; 1 Cor.5:5; 7:5; 2 Cor.2:11; 11:14; 12:7; 1Thes. 2:18; 1 Tim.1:20; 5:15; Rev.2:9,13 (twice), 24; 3:9; (c) of mankind, Lk.13:16; As.26:18; 2 Thes.2:9; Rev.12:9; 20:7. His doom, sealed at the Cross, is foretold in its stages in Lk.10:18; Rev. 20:2,10. Believers are assured of victory over him, Rom.16:20. The appellation was given by the Lord to Peter, as a "Satan-like" man, on the occasion when he endeavored to dissuade Him from death, Mt.16:23; Mk.8:33. "Satan" is not simply the personification of evil influences in the heart, for he tempted Christ, in whose heart no evil thought could ever have arisen Jn.14:30; 2 Cor.5:21; Heb.4:15; moreover his personality is asserted in both the OT and the NT, and especially in the latter, whereas if the OT language was intended to be figurative, the NT would have made this evident. (Vine's Expository Dic. of Biblical Words (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publ)

What does Vine say about Devil, or Devilish? “Diabolos, ‘an accuser, a slanderer’ (from diaballo, "to accuse, to malign"), is one of the names of Satan. From it the English word "Devil" is derived, and should be applied only to Satan, as a proper name.” (Vine's Dic.)

M.G Easton -

SATAN adversary; accuser. When used as a proper name, the Hebrew word so rendered has the article “the adversary” (Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7). In the N.T. it is used as interchangeable with Diabolos, or the devil, and is so used more than thirty times. He is also called “the dragon,” “the old serpent” (Revelation 12:9; 20:2); “the prince of this world” (John 12:31; 14:30); “the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2); “the God of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4); “the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2). The distinct personality of Satan and his activity among men are thus obviously recognized. He tempted our Lord in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1-11). He is “Beelzebub, the prince of the devils” (12:24). He is “the constant enemy of God, of Christ, of the divine kingdom, of the followers of Christ, and of all truth; full of falsehood and all malice, and exciting and seducing to evil in every possible way.” His power is very great in the world. He is a “roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8). Men are said to be “taken captive by him” (2 Timothy 2:26). Christians are warned against his “devices” (2 Corinthians 2:11), and called on to “resist” him (James 4:7). Christ redeems his people from “him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14). Satan has the “power of death,” not as Lord, but simply as executioner.” (The AGES Digital Library).

All quotes can be checked easily, all in the public domain. Unlike CD’s who quote from unknown publications, out of context or change the quote dishonesty.

>>Any question you have I will try to answer. Let's stick to one subject though at a time. There is no point jumping all over the place. God manifestion is the theme of the bible. That would be a good place to start. Are you willing? in the one hope Paul<<

Yes answer the above first.

Regards
Mark


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