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Hi Erica

You wrote,


>>I was not going to write again but I see from your answers that some of your quotes are out of context which is leading to a misunderstanding of scripture. I want to help you to understand the true teaching of scripture this is why I have written again.<<

Well thanks for your time. And "I want to help you to" become a Christian. You need the Saviour & the truth [Jn.14:6]. A "true understanding of Scripture", been 'born again' and having the Holy Spirit within is vital. Paul writes concerning God's children, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." [Rom. 8:9]. If you do not have "the Spirit of Christ" you are not a child of God but unregenerate and lost in sin. What you need is a spiritual birth, not a religious system of rules that has no guarantee of salvation. You must purse this important issue and come to know the Saviour.

Jesus said, "He [the Holy Spirit] shall be with you and shall be in you" [Jn14:17]. The reason why you are so unsure about eternal life and Scripture is because the Holy Spirit leads and guides into all truth [Jn.14:26 16:13-14]. If you don't have the Holy Spirit, how can He help? And if there's uncertainty how salvation is attained, then there will be confusion over whether it can be maintained.

Interesting how you tell me that I'm not obeying Christ's commands, when you are disobedient to His commands. Jesus said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again." [Jn.3:6-7]. And "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching" [Jn.14:23-24]. How does he 'make his home in them'? By the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You are like the "blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel." You quibble about others who should obey commands and miss-out the most important command yourself. You wrote,


>>I do not avoid the connection between V10 & V12, however you seam to miss the connection between V10 & V12 with V13 & V14. Verse 10 says IF ye KEEP my COMMANDMENTS (plural, more than one) ye shall ABIDE in MY LOVE. Verse 12 says "This is my commandment" singular, this is one of his commandments. Verse 14 says "Whatsoever I command you." What do you understand "whatsoever I command you" to mean if it does not mean what it says ? <<

And even if correct, you still don't obey His commands. Don't worry about me when you are unsure about eternal life. Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit" [Jn.3:5]. If 'born of water' is Christian baptism, why have you not been born of "the Spirit? No wonder you admit not having 'eternal life' and argue how vital 'conditions' are. There's something wrong. Eternal life is given when you become a Christian, not after years of keeping commandments, following a religious system and death. If you want others to follow your list of conditions then which list do you keep? The Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphian, Mormon, or SDA list?

In John 10 Jesus contrasts Himself with all those who pretended, or had pretended, to be shepherds of Israel. They were religious, had many '
conditions' and believed they followed the true commandments. But they rejected belief in Jesus and preferred commandments. The sheep follow Him, for they know His voice. There are many other voices, but the sheep do not know them. Their safety consists, not in knowing them all, but in knowing that they are not the one voice, which is life to them - the voice of Jesus. All the rest are the voices of strangers. He is the door for the sheep. He is their authority for going out, their means of entering in. By entering in, they are saved. They go in and out. It is no longer the yoke of ordinances, which, in guarding them from those without, put them in prison. The sheep of Christ are free: their safety is in the personal care of the Shepherd; and in this liberty they feed in the good and fat pastures which His love supplies. In a word, it is no longer a system of conditions, it is salvation, and liberty, and food. You wrote,

>>Lets analyse the quote: "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (talking about his sacrificial death). How does Jesus's laying down his life benefit mankind? Romans 5 : 8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."<<

Yes a verse that goes well here is - "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" [2 Cor.5:21]. God made a swap [imputation]. He imputed our sin to Christ and His righteous to us. God did not ignore our sin. Christ suffered death in our place and paid the penalty we had incurred. He was 'forsaken' [Mk.15:33-34] that we may never be forsaken. If God loved us while we were lost in sin and dead to Him, "how much more" now salvation is sure. You wrote,


>>1 Cor.15:3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." So Jesus's laying down of his life is for the forgiveness of sins, but who's sins ? Jesus says that He lay down his life for his friends, who then are his friends ? "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." The friends of Jesus are the ones that keep his commandments whether there be one commandment or one hundred and one that is what the quote says. If anyone avoids keeping the commandments of Jesus they will not be considered a friend of Jesus and so his sacrificial death has no relation to them. How more plain and simple can it be!<<

Yes of course!! The problem is, you have Jesus only dying for those working their way to heaven. To be a 'friend' is one thing, to be a child of God is another. You assume people become God's children by 'abiding in Christ'. Sounds good, but the real way is to be born into God's family. 'Abiding in' relates to the Christian walk, those already in the family. You are not trying to get in through the Door, but by another way - by "keeping the commandments'. So I say, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...." [Act 16:31]

In the end you place conditions on God's love [Jer.31:1] and conflict with Paul. He wrote, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law [which is keeping commands] rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." [Rom.3:20-24]. So your
'friends who keep the commands' are on the observing the law. Salvation [for you] is linked to personal effort and works, while grace is only received in heaven. You wrote,

>>I do not read the law into the words of Jesus the law was fulfilled by Jesus Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. We have a new covenant with Jesus Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (a covenant is a contract or agreement which suggest conditions Jesus says "If " which is a condition.)<<

Your emphasis on "commandments" becomes identical to the OT law. But there's no "ifs" in the New Covenant. It's better because it's unconditional and doesn't require human works and effort. It's sealed and complete by Christ's blood. "It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant." [Heb 8:9]. It's not about commandments 'letter of the law.' As Paul said the, "new covenant [is] not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" [2 Cor 3:6].

Paul says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works " [Rom.4:4-6]. Under the Old Covenant there were '
conditions' and remembrance of sin was made [Heb.10:3] but with the New there's NO remembrance of sin [Heb.8:12-13]. And to be the Mediator between God and man, considering who God is, the only one who could stand between God and man would himself need to be both God and man. You wrote,

>>You say Jesus's command is to love one another, we can see from Romans 13:9 what he means by this, "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." So to love one another involves all those other things stated.<<

Love can "involve all those other things". But Jesus said, just because one can claim to have obeyed "all those other things" it doesn't mean they will enter the kingdom [Lk.18:18-21]. Salvation is not dependant on my effort to keep 'conditions', [or how much 'love' I have] but on God's work through Christ - which is sure and certain. You wrote,

>>You say that Christian baptism was not yet introduced, Just because it was not yet introduced doesn't mean it can not be referred to, Jesus is also talking about his death and he had not yet died. So it is referring to after his death when Christian baptism was introduced. You have avoided to comment on Rom 6:3.<<

Then you must prove baptism was "
referred to" in Jn.10. Rom.6:3 doesn't say without water baptism there's no salvation, but baptism is always connected with death. Regeneration speaks of a new creature or new birth, while baptism is symbolic of death. The new life has happened to the regenerated. Baptism is a burial into death - a likeness of Christ's death. While baptism is important it does not wash away sin. Only the blood of the New Covenant can. So grace has always been the means by one can come to God and receive sins forgiven. Baptism is an outward public show of an inward spiritual reality. Only those who have received Christ as Saviour and are saved can truly be baptized. You wrote,

>>You are right I do belong to a sect and I follow the doctrines of a leader, the sect is the one mentioned in Acts 28 : 22 and my leader is Jesus Christ.<<

So what is your sect? There's only two that hide their identity - Christadelphians and Jehovah's Witnesses. Both pretend to be 'Christian' and fool people. What you teach is not Good News about God's grace but a life long effort to keep 'commandments' [a religion]. I mentioned that Jesus taught the message of the Kingdom [Mt.3:2 4:17 5:3 Mk.4:26 Lk.8:1] but the message of the cross could not be preached till after the cross. The Good News of His atonement for sin was yet to be proclaimed. So Jesus says many things to His disciples before His death burial and resurrection spoken to Israel [Jn.1:11] and those "under the law" [Gal.4:4-5]. Yet when Jesus spoke Christian "baptism" had not been introduced. You apply the word "whatsoever" to mean anything and read 'baptism' into the text. You replied to this,

>>I am aware that these words where preached before Jesus's death etc. As I have already mentioned that does not mean mention of it can not be made, as we see also in Matt 26:38, Mark 10:45 and Mark 8:31.<<

But if mention is NOT made [of baptism] you are reading into the text something not there. He's not discussing baptism. There's no end to suggesting a "
mention" where it is no "mention". When Jesus spoke of His death before the event, the language is CRYSTAL clear. Your reference to baptism in John 10:17-18 is not obvious and you will have us washing one another's feet [Jn.13:14] and a whole host of other 'commands' simply by reading into the text something NOT there. You wrote,

>>You speak of the message of the kingdom you seem to be unaware that this same gospel was preached to the rest of the world also. Acts 1:3 "To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God" (Here is Jesus after his resurrection speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God).<<

You seem to be unaware that the kingdom was postponed and that the message proclaimed now is the Gospel of God's grace - the free gift to all. This is why the central truth of the Gospel is missing in your doctrine. The foundation of the Christian Church is not the Kingdom but the Gospel message Act 2:36-39. How clear can Acts 4:12 be? That's not the old message known to the OT Hebrews but the message of salvation and grace through Christ's death and resurrection. The Jews rejected Christ and His message that the King had arrived. The Kingdom would NOT now be set-up immediately. Jesus gave the disciples the NEW message for all the nations [Mt.28:19]. The nation Israel [some Jews] expected Christ to set up His earthly kingdom, instead they crucified Him. His disciples had to figure-out what that meant. Jesus instructed about a New Covenant and a change in God's plan. Your problem is that you ignore the gospel of grace and forgiveness of sins; and instead major on the kingdom, commands and ignore the new birth.

One can spend a life-time focused on His coming earthly rule and miss salvation. Since the resurrection, the prominent fact is, that Christ was raised from the dead and gave His life for our sins. Hence this gospel could not have been preached while Jesus was on earth. It is carefully defined in I Cor.15:1-3 "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand...how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures [the OT] and was buried, and rose again the third day, according to the Scriptures." Are you unaware of this verse? You wrote,

>>Acts 28:30-31 "And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, (not just Jews) Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him." <<

What was the "preaching" in Act.28? Paul said, "..the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God BY HIS RESURRECTION from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord" [Rom.1:2-4 see also 1 Cor.15:1-3]. Ignore this gospel to your peril.

You said regarding Acts 8:12 "
This is the gospel that was preached after Jesus' ascension". Yes it was "the good news about Jesus" [Acts 8:35] and His death for sin [Ac.8:25-35]. The "good news" of the grace of God is intended for all men, but the gospel of the Kingdom was intended for the Jews [who rejected it]. The Jews effectively said "We will not have this man to reign over us" [Lk.19:14 1:33]. There is a transition period between the Old and New Covenants in which the church must find her footing and standing on Old Testament matters, terminology, and practice. You wrote,

>>Acts 20:25 "And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more." (spoken by Paul the one who took the gospel to the gentiles)<<

Note vs.24, Paul says, "the Lord Jesus has given me--the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace". That should be your Gospel not a message of effort, conditions and commandments. You wrote,

>>Galatians 5:21 that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (taught to the Galatians not Jews)<<

Yes the kingdom belongs to the children of the divine family. But that is not the gospel [Good News]. Galatians [written approx 53-57] was mainly to Jewish churches containing Gentiles troubled by Judaizers [Gal.2:14 3:28]. Hence the mention of 'the law' and Abraham, which had special meaning to them. So Paul wrote, "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? [Gal.3:1-2]. Clearly the Gospel [Good News] was not a message of works [commandments] but God's grace. You wrote,

>>Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, (taught after Jesus ascension) <<

Paul is saying that the patient endurance of those suffering is proof they are worthy for that glory on account of which they suffer. And in that sense, worthy of that glory. They who are children of God, and partakers of the Divine nature, and worthy of God's kingdom, not because they have done anything to merit it, but because they bear the image of God; and the image is that which gives them the kingdom.

But the message Paul had for them was "...according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" [2 Th 1:12]. The grand object of God in giving His Gospel to mankind is to save them from their sins, make them like Himself, and take them to His eternal glory. He saves according to the measure of his eternal goodness; the idea of the salvation you suggest and expect of Christians, would be dishonorable for God to administer. He saves according to His grace. His own eternal goodness and holiness is the measure of his salvation to man; not the creeds and expectations of any class of Christians or sect. To be saved at all, we must not only be saved in God's way, on His terms, and according to His own measure. You wrote,

>>Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (The gospel of the kingdom preached to all nations) Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (again preached to all nations)<<

We must not force the Christian church into the eschatological discourse in Mk.13:1-32 Lk.21:5-33 17:23,24,37. The Jewish men Jesus spoke to knew almost nothing about the Christian church at the time of this prophecy they were simply a believing Jewish remnant who clung to Jesus as the true Messiah [vs.5,24 Mk. 13:9,15-16, 20]. In this passage we see a persecuted Jewish minority witnessing for God amidst the world that will immediately precede the coming of the Son of Man.

The true church will not participate in this at all for it will be removed before this period of affliction begins [1 Thes.5:9-10]. Just as it was not in existence at the time of Jesus' early ministry. The day will come when the Jewish people will become His people again and take the message of His coming kingdom to the nations. So "this gospel of the kingdom" is not the proclamation of the union of the church with Christ, nor redemption in its fullness, as preached and taught by the apostles after the ascension, but the kingdom which was to be established on the earth, as John the Baptist, and as the Lord Himself, had proclaimed.
This is the general history of that which would take place until the end of the age, without entering on the subject of the proclamation.

Otherwise you will have Christians 'fleeing into the mountains', abstaining from pregnancy, and praying Christ doesn't return in winter, all part of your gospel [Mk.13:14-19]. You wrote,

>>Are you saying that the gospel of the kingdom is different from the gospel preached after Jesus's death and resurrection?<<

Yes, the message of the kingdom relates to the law ["not of faith" Gal.3:12], and to Israel. The kingdom agreement depended on Israel's covenant keeping and receiving the Messiah [Rom.10:21]. The Good News of the NEW agreement is all nations can enjoy God's unconditional love. God has not finished with Israel [Rom.11:1 7-12]. Jesus will one day establish the kingdom but the Church needs to proclaim the Gospel of John 3:16. You quoted,

>> Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (note here it is spoken to the Galatians who where preached the kingdom of God in Galatians 5:21after Jesus's death and resurrection)<<

And what is this "
gospel" referred to? Its regarding, "Christ...who [was] raised from the dead" and the, "Grace and peace...from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age" [Gal 1:1,3-4]. You wrote,

>>I will try and explain again to you the difference between earning something and been given something As a analogy A child does a job for a man, lets say cleans the car, the man says IF you do a perfect job (complete sinlessness) you will earn $5 (eternal life) the child trys its hardest but is incapable of doing a perfect job (we can not be completely sinless only Jesus could do that) but because the man (God) can see that the child had tried and done their best (this is the judgement, we are judged on the spirit of the works done, were they done ungrudgingly and to the best of our ability, and not on the actual works themselves) then the man gives the child the $5 anyway not because it was earned but as a gift. (the gift of eternal life). I hope this makes it a bit clearer. This is a very crude analogy which is only for the intention of showing the difference between earning and receiving as a gift, it does not deal with the atonement.<<

Sounds like Roman Catholic meritorious grace for meritorious works. If we only try hard enough, if we only mean well, God will give salvation. There are millions trusting "
the spirit of the works done" and that's not what's needed. In your analogy the man promises a $5 reward for a "perfect job" but in the end gives the reward for 'trying'. He promises a reward but gives it only because we are trying to earn it. No matter which way you say it, you cannot avoid God "giving something" to those trying to "earn something". The child 'labours' for his "gift but that is NOT the way God saves [Rom.4:4] The saved are whose who do "not work" but "trust in him" [Rom.4:5]. Your analogy contradicts if, "the child tries his hardest but is incapable of" baptism - then he won't get anything. You wrote,

>>I am not trying to be critical of you I am trying to point out true scripture. If you feel criticised by scripture then that is something for you to consider.<<

You might well hate me because I have the freedom in Christ you don't have. I believe the Gospel is wonderful, I serve a wonderful Saviour, you have the burden of a religious system I don't have [Gal.5:1 Ac.15:10]. It's interesting why the elder son was unhappy with the prodigal son. Although he kept all 'thy commandments' he was never given the gift that could cheer his heart [Lk.15:29]. You are among those "trying to please God by trying to obey - Commandments" [Gal.4:25LB]. In contrast, I'm not a "slave" but "free" [Gal.4:27]. Paul says, 'It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery' [Gal 5:1]. Those slaving to please God "will never share in the inheritance with the free." [Gal.4:30]. Those "born according to the flesh despised and persecute" those [born] "according to the Spirit" [Gal.4:29].

I mentioned that "The thief on the cross wasn't baptised yet was assured of paradise. And Paul was happy he baptized 'only a few' [1 Cor.1:14]. Strange language, if baptism is vital to enter eternity". You respond,

>>As you pointed out yourself Christian baptism was not in place at the time so the thief wasn't required to be baptized.<<

And yet he's in paradise "today" not baptized. So it wasn't in place? What did you say concerning baptism? "....Just because it was not yet introduced doesn't mean it can not be referred to". Do you apply your rule consistently? Some don't need to obey to be 'friends'? There are exceptions to the rule? Jesus put aside His 'commands'? You wrote,

>>1 Cor 1:14 You take this quote out of context. When taken in context we can see that he made this remark because the people who were baptized where putting up the people that baptized them as leaders.<<

I'm not reading baptism into text [like you in Jn.3 & 10]. But if baptism is vital to salvation what a thing for Paul to say? In your theology he says, "I thank God that" I taught the message of God to "only a few". How silly, and unlike Paul to mislead us. But you don't believe baptism makes the vital difference anyway. Come on be honest! In your doctrine, I can be baptised, yet fall away and be lost. You don't even have God's Spirit in your heart or accepted Christ as Saviour; you are "trying" to save yourself. You have an outward form of religion yet inside void God's love and grace. You belittle the work of the cross, deny the sinfulness of sin, and make God's love appear half-hearted. And the power of Christ's atonement becomes weak and frail so we must live a life of trying to keep rules and commands. You wrote,

>>I have explained about receiving the gift of eternal life and it shows great love for us from God because he has made a way possible for all mankind to receive this gift. Of course it is by Grace without the grace of God we would still be under the sentence of death, and of course it is by faith, faith that there is a God, faith that Jesus is his son, faith that what God has spoken will come to pass etc. and faith in what God tells us is the way to receive eternal life.>>

Contradiction after contradiction. You write below - "the way to eternal life" [is what?] to "act accordingly [have faith], true faith is manifested by works". Which contradicts any mention of salvation by grace. As said before, one minute you insist we can't earn eternal life, the next you insist we must keep all the commands to receive eternal life. You use the words 'faith' and 'grace' but haven't a clue what they mean. I know that I have eternal life because my faith is in what Christ has done for me and He has removed all my sin. Your faith is - that "there is a God" "Jesus is his son" what God says "comes to pass" And of course, your faith is in your effort. See the difference between my faith and your wishy-washy faith? You have a new definition of faith - 'faithful works'. It's what you put your faith in that makes the difference. Salvation is only through what God has done in Christ for you, not the other way around.

When I say 'I have eternal life', you reply we only have the '
promise of life'. It depends on 'conditions'. This strikes me as extraordinary coming from those who professes to believe the Scriptures. When I claim that I have eternal life now, it's based on my identification with Christ in His death and resurrection. This is the counterpart to the truth of the identification of the natural man with Adam in his sin and condemnation. So it's the one who says he has not eternal life that denies the resurrection of Christ [see Rom.6:6-11 8:2, 9-11 Eph. 2:6 Col.3:1 etc].

I received the gift of God, which is everlasting life, and passed "out of death into life," [Jn.5:24]. Since then I work, not in order to be saved, but because I am saved. Only the saved can work, [Eph.2:10; Titus 3:3]. For all others, "this is the work of God, that I ye believe on Him whom He [God] hath sent" [Jn.6:29]. I also read the Scriptures, not in order to get eternal life, but because I have already obtained eternal life and require the spiritual meat and drink suitable for one who has been born anew and from above.

It is manifestly impossible for the dead to obtain eternal life by their own efforts, (which are dead works). It is only by "the gift of God" as Jesus declared in Jn 4.10 and elsewhere [Rom.6:23]. You wrote,

>> So whatever God tells us is needed to receive eternal that we do because we have faith that what God says is the truth. "Faith without works is dead." <<

But what God says we need to do to receive eternal life is simply repent and believe. Paul says "...if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." [Rom 10:9-10]. I suggest, have faith in "what God says" is true, not the kind of faith you define. Your 'faithful works' have no guarantee of salvation or receiving eternal life. Is this verse correct? - "Without works it's impossible to please God". You wrote,

>>This is why I used the quotes about Abraham and Rahab to show that it was there faith in God that was displayed in the way they acted or the works that they did. I have not specified that good works are what you suggest, I say that good works are doing the will of God and acting in a way that shows faith in God and his words.<<

You argued no one has 'eternal life.' And keeping 'whatsoever' commands or "conditions" [ie baptism] is necessary that [quote] we "MAY OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE". You suggest Abraham's and Rahab's works to argue that "eternal life...is given to them [who] have tried to live according to Gods ways". Your point was that "...Rahab the harlot [was] justified by works" You still appear oblivious to the way Paul and James use the words 'faith', 'works' and 'justified'.

Paul says - "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" [Rom 5:1]. So I'm "justified by faith" 'without deeds'. [Rom.3:28]. And "...justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" [Rom 3:24] not by works or laws, or keeping a list of commandments. "So it is we are saved by faith in Christ and not by the good things we do" [Rom.3:28LB]. You wrote,


>>Of course salvation is not of ourselves without the intervention of God we would all die, we need the atonement which was made possible by the grace of God. The atonement is a covering for our sins, Jesus is this covering, we can only be covered by Jesus when we put on Jesus in baptism. Gal 3:27 " For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."<<

No the meaning of the word 'atonement' is simply at-one-ment, i.e., the state of being at one or being reconciled, so that atonement is reconciliation. Thus it is used to denote the effect which flows from the death of Christ. The word is also used to refer to what reconciliation brought about, 'satisfaction'. In that sense, to make atonement is to make satisfaction for offences (Ex.32:30; Lev.4:26; 5:16; Num. 6:11).

The scholars of the NT Greek say. By the atonement of Christ we refer to His work by which he expiated our sins. "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins" [1 Jn.2:2]. The Scripture word denotes the reconciliation itself, and not the means by which it is effected. When speaking of Christ's saving work, the word "satisfaction," is to be preferred to the word "atonement." Christ's satisfaction is all He did in the room and in behalf of sinners to satisfy the demands of the law and justice of God. Christ's work consisted of suffering and obedience, and these were vicarious, i.e., were not merely for our benefit, but were in our stead, as the suffering and obedient substitute. Our guilt is expiated by the punishment which He bore. As my substitute, dying in my stead, taking my sin, and guilt, means there's none left for me.

What Paul is saying in Gal.3:27 is that they who have believed in Christ as the promised Messiah went on to receive baptism as a public proof that they had received Christ as their Lord and Savior. In that manner they "have put on Christ". You wrote,


>>But this is not the end only the beginning, Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Lets just consider what sin is, sin is the breaking of God's commandments, you say there are no commandments to keep if that is true then you would be sinless and have no need for forgiveness, how is it then that Jesus teaches his disciples to pray for forgiveness? Luke 11:4 "And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."<<

What I say is that when one has obeyed the command to repent and believe, and is born again, then as God's child, their eternal redemption [Heb.9:12] is secure, they receive the gift of eternal life. I'm not saying good works or trying to live according to Scripture is unimportant but that it's insufficient for salvation. All the trying in the world will not receive God's pardon for sin. You wrote,

>>I apologise I misunderstood you I thought that when you mentioned new birth that you where referring to baptism if this is not the case I am interested to know what you consider is a new birth. You quote John 3:36 in relation to new birth but this quote does not mention it, also you quote John 3:5-8 as saying "have eternal life" but it does not appear in these verses. The phrase "new birth" does not appear in the Bible {king James version} but born again does at John 3:3 & 7<<

What do I consider a "new birth" [1 Pe.1:3NIV]? Its clearly taught in Scripture [Gal.4:23, 29, 31 Eph.2:5 1 Pe.1:23 AB]. Titus 3:5 reads "He saved us [past tense] not because any works of righteousness that we have done but because of His own pity and mercy by [the] cleansing [bath] of the new birth [regeneration] and renewing of the Holy Spirit". This is what Jesus referred to, if His instructions are not followed you don't have salvation. You object and say -

>>This is talking about baptism as can be seen in verse 5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This is not talking about our natural birth as we can see from verse 4 "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" So we need to be born of water and spirit.<<

Yes He's is not talking about a natural birth - "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit" He says, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" [Jn.3:3]. No mention of 'baptism'. The expression 'born again' can also mean 'born from above' [Jn.3:7AB]. 'Born...of God" [Jn.1:13] 'Born of the Spirit' [Jn.3:3,8]. The new birth is like the wind [unpredictable vs.8]. There is nothing unpredictable about baptism, the date and hour can by fixed in advance but you can't do that with the new birth.

This is not baptism for that would be contrary to the rest of the Bible. Throughout the Bible we read salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus alone. Christian baptism had not yet been instituted [not that that means anything to you]. But baptism is intended for those who have already been saved, not as a means of salvation. In Eph.5:25-26 water is closely associated with the Word of God. Also in 1 Peter 1:23 the new birth is said to take place through the Word of God. It is quite possible; therefore, that water in this verse does refer to the Bible. There can be no salvation apart from the Scriptures.

But water may also refer to the Holy Spirit [1 Jn.5:6]. In John 7:38-39 the Lord spoke of rivers of living water He was speaking of the Holy Spirit. If water means the Spirit in chapter 7 why can it not have the same meaning in Jn.3? If water is taken to mean the Spirit, then it would appear the Spirit is mentioned twice in Jn.3:5. The word 'and' could just as correctly have been translated 'even'. So it reads - 'Expect a man be born of water, even the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'. This is the best meaning of the passage. There must be a spiritual birth produced by the Holy Spirit and it's supported by the expression 'born of the Spirit' found twice vs.6.8.

The new nature is identified with eternal life in this chapter - if it's baptism then none of the baptised could perish. Yet baptism is never set out as figuring life but death. You wrote -


>>Consider what is told us about baptism Romans 6:3-4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. "Here we symbolical die and are born again {new birth, born of water} and then we live our new life dedicated to God serving God and not sin {born of the spirit, keeping the commandments, walking in newness of life}.<<

This sounds identical to Roman Catholic dogma where baptism becomes "the sacrament of faith." Baptism is not the quickening but the identifying of those quickened with the death of Christ. Because of Him baptism is the sign ['symbolical'] of men dead to sin but alive to God. Baptism can be the formal expression of washing away sins, but never of communicating life. You wrote,

>>Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it SHALL be imputed, IF we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Romans 10:10-11 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him SHALL not be ashamed. Romans 6:8 Now IF we be dead with Christ, we believe that we SHALL also live with him: These quotes may guarantee salvation but we see that it with conditions and it doesn't specify that salvation is immediate, in fact "shall" is a future tense.<<

You seem to have the impression that people enter the kingdom by acting like Christians. The more religious they are, the more sure of entering heaven. Of course, "Whosoever believeth on him SHALL not be ashamed" all those 'born again' SHALL enter the kingdom. This is certain and sure, the only perquisite If "we believe on Him". Christ's atonement guarantees salvation [Rom.4:24 6:8 10:10-11]. Those who do not believe are condemned [Mk.16:16 Lk.8:12 Jn.3:18 8:24]. But you don't believe the verses you quote. You offer NO guarantee of salvation or eternal life. To you it's all maybe, or might, or if one is clever enough to read, and know all the 'conditions'. What a nebulous doubtful religion found in baptismal regeneration. You wrote,

>>So Romans 6:3 & 8 tells us to live with Christ we must be baptised, baptism is not just important it is necessary.<<

This would make 'water baptism' the Saviour instead of Christ who said "I am the way" [Jn.14:6]. It means that the work of Christ is not sufficient. When He cried, "It is finished" it really wasn't according to your doctrine, because baptism must be added. Yet it's strange that Jesus did not baptise anyone and that's clearly stated [Jn.4:1-2]. Jesus did not baptise anyone! And Paul, an evangelist baptized very few at Corinth didn't he know it was essential for salvation? The Caesareans in Act 10:44 received the Spirit when they believed. Meaning they were saved and belonged to Christ [Rom.8:9]. After receiving the Spirit [being saved] they were baptized [vs.47-48] So baptism was not necessary for their salvation. You wrote,

>>You quote Mark 16:16 This again shows the need for baptism. "believeth AND is baptized" both are needed. When studying the word of God it is important not to base our beliefs on isolated quotes belief is needed but we can see from other quotes that that is not all. When we consider belief, belief in what ? Is it not belief in the words of God and what he has told us concerning the way to salvation.<<

All Mk.16:16 teaches is that baptism normally follows believing. When Christ said, "He that believes and is baptized" He was simply describing the routine order of events. All believers should be baptized - proved by the later part of the verse. Belief is the crucial matter and baptism is merely the expected outward profession of belief. But what about the 150 verses in the NT which teach that salvation is by faith alone? Can they be contradicted by a few '
isolated' quotes that seem to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? You wrote,

>>You quote Gal 3:7 Faith yes, faith in what? In God and what he tells us is the way to eternal life, and so act accordingly, true faith is manifested by works. <<

Yes but one might have strong faith, another weak faith [always doubting]. Humans find themselves imperfect whether it is God's law or even human legislation. Human imperfection also applies to the area of human faith. Faith or trust that originates out of the human heart or mind is flawed just like any of effort we undertake as humans. So it's not the quality of faith that counts, it's what we place our 'faith in'.

The Bible states what our faith should be in. My faith is in what Christ has done on the cross. Any faith in personal effort, to keep a list of commandments is not saving faith. It's correct that '
true faith' reveals itself by works, but it is not the faith itself that is the essential element of Salvation. The special act of faith, which unites to Christ, has as its object the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Jn.7:38; Ac.16:31). This is the specific act of faith by which a sinner is justified before God (Rom.3:22, 25; Gal.2:16; Ph.3:9; Jn.3:16-36; Ac.10:43; 16:31). In this act of faith the believer appropriates and rests on Christ alone as Mediator in all His offices. It is surrender to God's gift of righteousness in Christ rather than seeking to achieve righteousness alone. You wrote,

>>You quote Gal 2:16, again you have taken this out of context, it is referring to the Law of Moses and those who where being circumcised which made them subject to all the commandments and ordinances of the Law of Moses. See also Gal 2:14 and Gal 5:1-3.<<

I quoted it regarding what you wrote. Which was, "Jesus has told us in order to receive everlasting life we must keep his commandments". And now in this mail - "all those other things stated" [referring to the Ten Commandments Rom.13:9]. You desire people are, "subject to all the commandments" for eternal life. If correct and the Bible teaches that, why would Paul say, Christ has "abolished in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations? [Eph 2:15]. Why would Paul say "a man is not justified by the works of the law" (or commands) [Gal.2:16]? What foolish things to write? Particularly if he knew there were 'conditions' and 'commandments' vital for salvation. You wrote,

>>You affirm that eternal life is now possessed based on these quotes even though that disagrees with it. And quoted 2 Timothy 1:1 1 John 2:25 Titus 1:1-2 Mark 10:30 and said, "It is impossible to make an actual present possession of eternal life agree with passages which tell us it is a future thing, but it is possible to make the idea of an actual future possession agree with statements that appear to speak of it as a present possession...how can you be SAVED NOW and BE SAVED AGAIN in the future? The only way is if it is understood in the sense I show."<<

Paul states what you deny - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" [Rom 5:9]. He says it again in verse 10 "For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" A double salvation - saved twice. Note what he says "how much more" - no doubt in his mind, he didn't trust his "effort" [like you]. He wrote, "...not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law [conditions, commandments rules, works], but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" [Phil 3:9].

It might be "
impossible to make" future references refer to the "present" [what you do with baptism in Jn.3] and impossible to make "present" references refer to the future. But the life I have now was received in the past [Acts 13:48. 1 Tim.6:12 2 Tim.1:9. 1 Jn.3:14 Eph.2:1 2:5] I have it now [present Jn.6:54 10:28-29 2 Cor.4:12 Rom.6:4 Gal.2:20] and will receive it's fullness in the future [Rom.2:7 8:11]. So salvation is spoken of as past "we were saved" [Rom.8:24] present "being saved" [1 Cor.1:18] and future "will be saved" [1 Cor.3:15]. The Holy Spirit reveals salvation in this way because it's certain [or scripture contradictions itself]. Only those trying to keep 'conditions' are robbed from the assurance of salvation. Keeping "conditions" is a vague uncertain hope. You write -

>>if we look at scripture we see how it speaks of other future things as though they were present. "A father of many nations have I made thee" (but at the time Abram had no son) Gen 17:5. "Unto thy seed have I given this land" (when he had no seed) Gen 15:18. Those spoken of as having eternal life 'have it' in the sense that it is promised to them, but the actual possession of it is not until the age to come.<<

Yes Scripture refers to future things "as though they were present". Paul says concerning God's children their "citizenship is in heaven" [Ph.3:20]. In fact, "God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" [Eph 2:6]. Paul is 100% sure salvation is certain [see also Psa.130:7]. Perhaps you should learn some NT Greek? Look up the word meanings to 'life' and 'death', Holy Spirit. Get yourself a good Greek Word NT study book. A copy of Vines or Richards or Earle's Dictionaries will do. It will change your mind about many of the doctrines of your sect. You wrote,

>>You quote 1 John 5:13-15 to show you have confidence of eternal life but I point out verse 12 which says IF you hath the Son you have life, and we have seen earlier that to have the son we must put on the son in baptism <<

I quoted 'to show' I have 'eternal life' now. The word "if" is not mentioned - "God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe...that ye may know that ye have eternal life" [1 Jn.5:11-13].

But if what's you say is true, it makes Christianity a joke. Whose '
baptism' are you suggesting? Any 'church' baptism? So millions of baptized Catholics are basically on the right road? No sooner do you tell me 'baptism' is vital, than you must tell me, it has certain 'conditions' and some baptisms are useless. Christadelphians are a joke, because while they insist baptism is vital, they have so many rules about baptism that many can't qualify.

It's not water baptism that people lack; it's the new birth. All the water in the oceans won't get anyone into the kingdom of God. One could have 300 baptisms, the 'Lord's Supper' daily and know all about the Bible, but if they don't have the Holy Spirit, their sins are not forgiven. You wrote,

>>I do not know why you think I do not have confidence to come before my God, I have the Son (do you, Have you been baptized?), I have the promise of eternal life (if you have not been baptized and do not keep the commandments of Jesus you do not have the promise of eternal life!)<<

Who is your
God? Is he the God of the Bible? Is He the Father - Son - Holy Spirit or merely a 'father like' figure that dwells alone in a bodily form that no one has seen? [ie the god Christadelphians imagine]. Your hope of "eternal life" is based on your efforts and only as secure as your faithfulness to God. An incredibly weak God for His power is overcome by mans sin. You wrote,

>>You say that works could be a reason why God might withhold his grace and salvation, yet you offer no scripture to support this statement.<<

Many self-righteous in the days of Jesus rejected Him and His message. They had their works [Mt.6:1-2 Lk.11:42] and trusted themselves. So Jesus turned to those who knew their need and said, "..I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" [Mat 9:13 Mk.2:17 Lk.5:32 15:2 Rom.5:8]. It's those who trust their own efforts [keeping the law, conditions or 'commandments'] that don't realize the terrible state of their soul and the need a Saviour. So God can't help them. They don't think there's a problem, as long as they try hard. They never ask forgiveness, they never receive salvation (just like you).

I wrote that 'It is vain to pretend love to God while we live in opposition to his will. "His commandments" are to love him with all our heart, and our neighbour as ourselves, they are not grievous, burdensome; for no man is burdened with the duties which his own love imposes.' You replied,

>>Here you say "it is vain to live in opposition to his will "His commandments" are etc., this is a contradiction to your earlier comments where you confirm that mankind do not need to keep God's commandments<<

What I was saying is this - "This is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ.3:23]. How foolish to pretend to love God while you haven't even obeyed this command and accepted Christ as your Saviour? There are many who never repent and believe the gospel; they religiously follow a set of conditions. Only those 'born again' can truly please God, those who have never undergone a spiritual birth [Jn.3] cannot please God at all [Rom.8:8-9]. You wrote,

>>Acts 13 :28 The King James has 'ordained' the original is tasso which means to arrange in orderly manner, assign, appoint, determine these words do not prove immediate possession, they have it in the sense that it is promised.<<

[Ac.13:48] Yes it's promised. That's wonderful! Those who believe are "appointed, ordained, determined, assigned' for "eternal life". Certain assurance, don't you think? What they needed was you there to tell them "Its only 'promised' don't get too happy about it"!!

I'm amazed you mention Greek and ignore it elsewhere. If you study the NT Greek words I mentioned, you would know 'eternal life' is the present possession of every believer. This is consistent among the NT Greek experts. Why ignore them? Go deeper into the Greek - check a few words. If you don't have the dictionaries, ask for help. You wrote,

>>Eph 2:1 2:5 1 Jn 3:14 These quotes also reinforces my point, those that are not in Christ are considered dead though actually alive, but the ultimate end for them is death, whereas those that are in Christ are considered to have life though they can actually die but will ultimately receive eternal life, see also Matt 8:22. John 10:28-29 Here it says they will never perish!, but if we understand it in the ultimate sense then there is no problem.<<

No, it's not talking about their "ultimate end" at all. There are people alive on earth NOW that are "dead" to God today. They are yet to be made alive in Christ and have a conversion so they are "dead" in sins. Death means separation, specifically separation from God. Do you know the NT Greek words for death? Do you only quote the Greek where it suits? You say, "if they never perish then they do not die, this is not true". But it is true for some, "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." [Jn.3:16].

You wrongly imagine the word "perish" [apolonto] means extinction. It doesn't. With 'apollumi' - destroy, the idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. Note its use - the marring of the wine skins Lk.5.37, of lost sheep Lk.15.43,6 lost son 15.24, perishing food Jn.6.27. Whether, katageo, kath-ah' ee-res-is, kathaireo, luo, kataluo, olothreuo etc, they never mean extinction. The Greeks [NT language] didn't believe such a condition for man. In none of the lost sheep - wine skins - perishing food - is the concept of non-existence. Both perish and lost are the same word as 'destroy'. Destruction is not annihilation; the lost sheep were not annihilated.

You sound materialistic and think only of the body, with no understanding of spiritual things. 'Except a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God'. And all that pertains to it. The Soul, Angels and spiritual things are invisible. The natural man is born blind 'color blind' to the great spiritual world. It is only through the 'second birth' of the Spirit can a man get his second sight. The super-sight of faith, which will enable him to see, to know, the great spiritual world that surrounds him and to know God. You are content with partial sight.

It appears whenever death is mentioned in Scripture you think it means 'nonexistence'. The same word has various use, "Dead in sins...dead because of our sins" [Eph.2:1-4] and "died with Christ" [Col.2:20]. "Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness." [Rom 8:10]. Is non-existence implied in these verses?

Like I said, Jesus made it very clear in Jn.3:36. There's no reason to think eternal life is not given upon conversion unless you're a legalist, or want people to obey a list of conditions particular to a sect. And you want to threaten people to 'follow our group' or 'you will perish and won't receive eternal life'.

I mentioned - "1 Jn.5:11-13 And said that the grammar and context of this passage eternal life (eionion zoes) is the present possession of every believer in Christ, and if the term "eternal life" does not include conscious fellowship then the whole NT meaning is destroyed. The Holy Spirit used the present indicative active of the verb echo, expressing present, continuous action.... ". You replied -


>>As previously stated (It is impossible to make an actual present possession of eternal life agree with passages which tell us it is a future thing, but it is possible to make the idea of an actual future possession agree with statements that appear to speak of it as a present possession, if we look at scripture we see how it speaks of other future things as though they were present. "A father of many nations have I made thee" (but at the time Abram had no son) Gen 17:5. "Unto thy seed have I given this land" (when he had no seed) Gen 15:18. Those spoken of as having eternal life 'have it' in the sense that it is promised to them, but the actual possession of it is not until the age to come.)<<

You are using the OT to interpret NT. The Bible is a Progressive Revelation; don't use the OT to explain NT verses. Obviously there's real problem in 1 Jn.5:11-13 for you. I realize you are at a disadvantage not having access to the Greek meaning of words in the NT. W.E Vine says, "Eternal life is the present actual possession of the believer because of his relationship with Christ Jn.5:24 1 Jn.3:14 and that it will one day extend its domain to the sphere of the body is assured by the Resurrection of Christ, 2 Cor.5:4. 2 Tim.1:10. This life is not merely a principle of power and mobility, however, for it has moral associations which are inseparable from it, as of holiness and righteousness." [pg.336 Expository Dictionary of NT Words Moody Press 1952 Edn.].

The newness of life which the believer derives from Christ [Rom.6:4] is the very essence of salvation, and hence the life of glory or the eternal life must also be theirs [Rom.6:8; 2 Tim.2:11, 12; Rom. 5:17, 21 8:30; Eph.2:5, 6]. It is the "gift of God in Jesus Christ our Lord" [Rom.6:23]. The life the faithful have here on earth [Jn.3:36; 5:24 6:47, 53-58] is inseparably connected with the eternal life beyond, the endless life of the future, the happy future of the saints in heaven [Mat.19:16, 29; 25:46]. Another scholar of the Greek NT, L.O. Richards says,

"Eternal life. We tend to think of eternal life as life with endless duration. That is part of it. But when the NT speaks of eternal life, its emphasis is on the quality or character of that life. Eternal life stands in contrast to biological life. Biological life is derived and fleeting; it has no shaping impact on the personality. Eternal life is God's own life, burning brightly not only with his vitality but with his own character. The wondrous message of the Scripture is that God has chosen to share this life - to share himself! - with human beings. "You have been born again," Peter writes, capturing the wonder of it, "not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God" (1 Pe.1:23). Born. God's life alone is able to break the grip of death on humanity. God's life alone can provide a basis for a warm personal relationship with the Lord. God's life alone can lift humanity to the destiny for which we were originally intended.

As the Bible presents the stunning possibility of eternal life now, that possibility is always linked with Jesus. It is only through faith in the Son of God that a person receives eternal life. It is only through faith that a close fellowship develops, and it is through this that God's life is released to find expression through us. Key theological passages. There are many significant passages in the NT that explore God's gift of life. A few of the more important in John's and then Paul's writings should be noted.

Jn.3:15-36. The person who believes in Jesus is given eternal life. The person who rejects the Son "will not see life."
Jn.5:21-26. Jesus possesses eternal life "in himself" (V.26), as does the father. Life is given to us by the Son.
Jn.6:27-68. Jesus came from heaven, bringing life to people.
Jn.10:10-28. By giving his life for the sheep, Jesus the Good Shepherd provides eternal life for his followers.
Jn.11:1-44. Jesus demonstrated his power by restoring biological life to Lazarus. He affirmed the promise of resurrection and endless life for all who believe in him.
I.Jn. 2-3. These chapters show that life from God will necessarily be expressed. God's life will show itself as believers love others and respond obediently to the Lord.
I.Jn.1:10-12. All who believe in the Son have eternal life now.
" [pg.412 Expository Dictionary of Bible Words. Richards Regency 1985].

Richards goes on to mention 5 more passages indicating eternal life is the present possession of born again Christians. So you offer no guarantee to anyone that they can be saved unless they observe the '
conditions' you specify. You replied,

>>You say that I specify conditions, I did not write the Bible, the conditions I have pointed out come from God, Ignore them if you wish.<<

No matter how noble or biblical they sound, the second you have a rite, rule,condition, action, requirement, or a set commandments, or whatever, as part of salvation to be obeyed, that's when you corrupt the gospel. Why not just believe what God says in His Word? "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." [Eph 2:8-9].

I mentioned - 'The word gospel means 'good news' your message is not good news. You are teaching that God's grace, combined with our efforts only makes eternal life possible.' You replied,


>>I have dealt with this earlier in the analogue. I do not teach that God's grace combined with our efforts are what makes forgiveness of sins possible. By the grace of God through Jesus's death and resurrection made the forgiveness of sins possible.<<

It sounds like a contradiction. You wrote of the 'child trying to be perfect' all life. Isn't that a life-time "effort"? You wrote, "if you have not been baptized and do not keep the commandments of Jesus you do not have the promise of eternal life!". And mention "conditions." BUT now say that salvation is not "God's grace combined with our efforts". Sins forgiven are by "the grace of God" and He doesn't need my 'efforts'?? You affirm strongly what you strenuously deny. And seem to be saying that we have received the promise of sins forgiven and possibly our sins will be forgiven if we keep commandments.

I mentioned there are two main judgments of Scripture. One for unregenerate mankind [De 32:36 Ps 1:4 1Sa 2:10 Ec.3:17 Ro 3:6 Heb 13:4] and the other for God's people. You responded -


>>De 32:36 You say that this refers to a fearful event that only the unregenerate mankind will endure and not child of God, but God refers to them as his people!<<

But this says there is a 'judgment for mankind' [the point I made]. You overlook that NOT all those of Israel are God's true people. "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" [Rom 9:6]. Those referred to in De.32:36 are unregenerate. God will judge the unregenerate of Israel. Read the very next verse - "He will say: Now where are their gods, the rock they took refuge in" [Deu 32:37].

If you don't like my last references try these passages - Mt.25; Rom.14:10,11 2 Cor.5:10 2 Th.1:7-10. The final judgment is certain [Ecc.11:9] universal [2 Cor.5:10] righteous [Rom.2:5] decisive [1 Cor.15:52] and eternal as to its consequences [Heb.6:2]. Perhaps you are side tracking the original discussion by going down this road. You wrote,

>>You quote Psalms 1:4-5 To prove that the ungodly stand at judgement and not the righteous, but these quotes say the opposite! "The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall NOT STAND in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."<<

But this says there will be a judgment for the unregenerate. "Ungodly shall not stand in judgment"? Do you understand Ps.1:4-5 correctly? Adam Clarke's Commentary - "Some of the versions have, The ungodly shall not arise in the judgment-they shall have no resurrection, except to shame and everlasting contempt. But probably the meaning is, When they come to be judged, they shall be condemned. They shall have nothing to plead in their behalf." [The Digital Library edition vol.6 pg.443]. Don't forget the NT interprets the OT not the other way around.

John wrote, "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books" [Rev 20:12]. Notice they were "dead", "standing" and "judged" by what they had done on earth. Dead and completely conscious. Most 'bible students' believe the ungodly will be judged [Mt.5:21-22 10:15,22,24 12:36 Lk.10:14 Rom.2:5 2 Pe.2:9 3:7 Rev.14:7] but not you? You wrote,

>>1 Sam 2:10 does not specify a difference, it says "the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth". Ec 3:17 "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked". This does not support the idea that they are judged at a different times. Romans 3:6 "Judge the world" everyone together.<<

Again, these verses clearly indicate the 'wicked' [unregenerate] will be judged. I think you are quibbling about the details. The fact is, the judgment of the wicked will be different to that of God's children. The original point I made was that 'there are TWO main judgments of Scripture' for TWO TYPES of people - saved and unsaved. One is different from the other. God's children are not condemned - 'He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already' [Jn.3:18]. "Pay attention, I say to you, he that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and will not come into condemnation." [Jn.5:24]. You wrote,

>>1 Cor 3:13-17 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" You say this is the judgement of the God's people let us consider what it is saying, "If any man (god's people) defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy!" How can someone who has eternal life be destroyed?<<

The Greek word for 'destroyed' does not mean a cessation of life God gives. But you don't understand the passage. When Paul says in Verse 16 "Ye are the temple of God" he resumes what he had asserted in 1 Cor.3:9 - Ye are God's building. As the whole congregation of Israel were formerly considered as the temple and habitation of God, because God dwelt among them, so here the whole Church of Corinth is called the temple of God, because all genuine believers have the Spirit of God to dwell in them. Therefore where God is, there is his temple. So "If any man defile the temple" [vs17] it means if any man destroy the temple, him will God destroy. If any corrupt or destroy the Church by false doctrine, God will destroy him. This refers to him who willfully opposes the truth. It refers to false teachers who are not true believers. Concerning John 10:28 you say -

>> As I have already said these are the ones who Jesus knows are his true followers and they will never perish because eternal life is guaranteed to true followers but not actually received until the judgement.<<

Yet Jesus guarantees and promises His own life to His sheep. He's saying 'they shall in no wise be lost'. In contrast, in your theology they do perish, and they haven't eternal life in the true sense of the words. They are snatched out of God's hands by death, sin, or failing to keep the 'conditions' or commandments. Jesus is saying 'They shall never perish' because He knows them, approves of and love them, and gives them eternal life. He lives in their hearts and gives "them eternal life, and this life is in his Son; and he that hath the Son hath life" [1 Jn.5:11,12]. It's not conditional on their behavior. It's the eternal life of the Lord Jesus Himself. None of His sheep will spend eternity lost because they have this eternal life abiding in them.

This is very clear - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." [Jn.10:28-29]. His "hand" and His "Father's hand" is a twofold guarantee of safety. You wrote,


>>Matt 25:32-41 "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: ....Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matt 25:46 AND THESE SHALL GO AWAY INTO EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: BUT THE RIGHTEOUS INTO LIFE ETERNAL. Here is the judgement both good and bad together, the righteous receive "life eternal". Note they are judged on the works they did.<<

Mt.25 is the 'Judgment of the Living Nations'. When Christ returns to earth the nations will be judged [Isa.2:4 Joel 3:1,2] The basis of this judgment will be the treatment of the Jews 'His brethren' among the nations [Num.23:7,9]. The result of this judgment will be the separation of the Gentile nations. Those nations treating the Jews kindly are called 'sheep' nations and will pass into the millennium, the others - 'goat' nations are destroyed by the judge. The Bible nowhere teaches a 'general judgment'. Judgments differ as to subjects, places, times and results. Nowhere does Scripture affirm that at some future time all mankind will simultaneously appear before the Lord to be judged. Saints are dealt with at one judgment and sinners at another. There was a judgment of sin on the cross when Christ secured a perfect salvation for sinners. What was death for Christ is life and justification for the believing sinner. Now their judgment as sinners is past [Jn.5:24 Rom.8:1,3 10:4]. You wrote,

>>You seam to be annoyed that I used your own words in relation to yourself, you said it was taken out of context, how do you think God feels when you take his words out of context and so misrepresent the truth?<<

No it came across as silly. The absurdity of your quote, having a weird sect insist - I was "the victim of spiritual deception" and "zealous for the doctrines of a system of human error" and "close minded". Coming from them that's laughable. They are experts at "Taking [God's] words out of context and misrepresenting the truth". You wrote,

>>I did look at your website and I believe that you are the victim of spiritual deception because your views are contrary to clear scripture. I do want to help and hope that the "Spirit of Truth" will speak to your heart and you will seek the truth. You are zealous for the doctrines of a system of human error and not for "the doctrine of Christ". Time will only tell if you will be close-minded when others would see the light, if you will refuse to see while others would be willing to see and if facts and the truth will make a difference to you, lets hope they will.<<

My comment hit a nerve? What Christadelphians inflict on others out weighs any grizzle they have. I'm happy people are discovering the error of your group. Let them judge who is "misrepresenting the truth" or ignoring facts. And if you think I'm in error convince me of 'the truth'. After all, salvation is THE most important subject to occupy with. So explain all the 'conditions' needed to get to heaven.

Regards
Mark



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