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Hi Tom

I still believe it doesn't take a scientist to prove there's a God and evolution is not a scientifically credible explanation for the origin of such immense complexities as DNA and the human brain. And as far as I'm concerned God's existence is not proven by a laboratory experiment but a lifetime practical reality. You responded,


>>One minute?...Scientific inquiry is the least static of methods..many lifetimes will expire before conclusions are made...145 years and counting since Darwin!! To just lay down and say "God did it all" is lazy...<<

"145 years since Darwin" and there's still an absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between transitions. And the history of evolution theory is fill of fake discoveries promising the missing link but NEVER delivered. So to say God created 'the heavens and the earth' is a far better explanation than after millions of years the impossible happened by chance over and over. I don't think you realise the ENORMOUS complexity of a simple single cell. Atoms don't fall together by themselves without a blueprint and make anything. It's a scientific fact; life only comes from pre-existent life not from matter. How complex are things... ? [quote]

"But let us have no illusions. If today we look into the situations where the analogy with the life sciences is the most striking- even if we discovered within biological systems some operations distant from the state of equilibrium-our research would still leave us quite unable to grasp the extreme complexity of the simplest of organisms." Ilya Prigogine (Prof. of Physics, Univ. Libre de Bruxelles), "Can thermodynamics explain biological order?" Impact of Science on Society, vol. 23 (3), 1973, p.178.

Use your '
knoggin' and think about the design, order and wonder in creation, obviously there's a Creator. That's not 'small-minded'. Be open and accept there's more to mans existence than just the material, as the Bible says. It's when people are lazy and won't obey the clear revelation of truth from God's Word that's when they become 'small-minded'. You respond -

>>That is contradictory....obey like a dog and don't search for your own answers. God in the bible sits somewhere and expects humanity to obey..not my kind of guy!<<

There's no contradiction. God expects us to use our 'knoggin' in life. When He says 'thou shalt not kill' He expects obedience. Whether He's your 'kind of guy" or not He expects obedience - "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." [Acts 17:30-31]. You say,

>>You can't mix matters of spirit and righteousness with science...the Theory of the Origin of Species is science just like Relativity is a theory that may or may not be refuted.<<

You were saying I was "small minded". Life's meaning is not defined by "a minute in a paleontology or biology lab". "Answers" to the big questions are better answered in the Bible. Evolution has no answer; it's only a "theory". I need answers in my "search" not theory.

And how can you mix '
evolution theory' with real science? Real science can only deal with things that can be observed or measured. It depends on measuring or watching something happen, and checking it by doing it again. The boundaries of real science are not based on speculative theories that are neither tangible nor tested scientifically. Prof.H.S. Lipson [FRS Physics] writes, "In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists have accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it" [A Physicist looks at evolution' Physics Bulletin vol.31 1980 p.138]. There is no proof evolution has happened, sadly many people just blindly believe it .

Since man disobeyed God sin blinds man to many things in life. It makes him hostile to God. Evolution doesn't explain anything, it has no answers. So evolutionists have become silly and think death, suffering and struggle are good to help evolution along. You reply,

>>Hardly, we see the animal kingdom locked in survival and death all the time..God needs this for His plan!!<<

How do you know "God's plan"? God is not your "kind of guy". If you seriously did some searching [you criticize others for not doing] you would know "Gods plan" is found in God's Word - the Bible. Death came into the World because of man's disobedience [Rom.5:12]. Death is a punishment [Gen. 2:17, 3:19] not the means by which God creates. You should at least know God's Word before you start preaching "God's plan". The whole of the Bible indicates that God certainly had a plan. And that was to save fallen mankind. He sent His Son to die for their sin. You wrote,

>>You only make reference to humanity. Humanity IS part of the animal kingdom... genetic similarities prove this time and time again.. all animals share genetic sequences with humans FACT not fiction!<<

R. Myers (Stanford Univ.) considers the difference between the human genome and less complex animals' genomes to be like comparing a sports car with a wreck on wheels which has the same number of parts. "The difference is the quality of the parts and the sophistication with which we put them together." Thus, we may only have 1% more genes than a mouse, but the way they work together makes us much more than 1% different from a mouse.

If we are only 1% different from a mouse in gene count, is the evolutionist going to be the first to admit the supposed 98.4% similarity to a chimpanzee is now (and was always) a stupid evidence for evolution? We also share 50% of our DNA with bananas but that doesn't make us half bananas.

If you want to know what God's creatures are, then God expects you to use the Bible. If man is basically just an animal then his death is the same. But the Bible indicates part of man survives death [Mt.10:28]. Man's "likeness" to this Creator is mental, moral & spiritual. So instead of being essentially like the lower animals, man is essentially different. Animals have instinct and attraction to their kind but they don't know God, love, reason, speech, moral judgment, accountability or humour. Conscience-reflection, imagination, nor do they have power to preserve thoughts with the same recollection. And, no appreciation of beauty, design, order and complex mathematical laws of nature and universe. Man is undeniable unique in this world and clearly different from animals. He resembles in form but not related in nature.

Note how Genesis refers to all other life - "Let the water teem with living creatures....Let the earth bring forth" [Gen.1:11,20-21 See also Job12;10]. Different language is used when man is introduced, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him." Only fallen man in his darkened mind confuses the two creations.

That's why I wrote that when we ignore God's Word and make up stories how God created, our beliefs become 'idiotic'. And we have no idea of "
God's plan". You replied,

>>Hardly, it makes far more sense to have a beginning and subsequent development through great expanses of time with diversity. These are the things that are observable ...diversity. Go read up on Occams Razor.<<

What makes sense is that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Gen 1:1]. Your "subsequent development" has nothing of any sense. How can "subsequent development" produce matter, order, design or life? Things of "observable diversity", things requiring intelligence to make don't happen by chance. So I wrote that the universe and life on earth is a powerful argument that there's a God. You replied to this,

>>Your big problem is this paranoia that humanity (not just men I might add) can't have free will and find answers without falling into sin...there certainly can be a God who uses evolutionism...God can do whatever He wants..remember?<<

You didn't answer the point. God doesn't act against His Word. He can't lie [Num 23:19]. God didn't use evolution, see Gen.1. Evolutionists believe death is the means whereby one species develops into another [Hitler had the idea]. They say death is an undisputed essential factor in evolution. Biologist H.Mohr states, "If there were no death, then no life would have existed. There is no other way around this axiom of evolutionary theory" [Human Evolution Heren Text 1983 p.12].

Murder, hate and aggression are the eggshells of evolution without which men would not have developed. Evolution regards death, suffering and struggle as GOOD, helping it along.

Evolution is not wonderful it's gruesome. The way of "
subsequent development" entailed an appalling measure of pain and sorrow. The Biblical testimony about God's nature is distorted when death and ghastliness are presumed to be creative principles. If God exists, evolution is nonsense. Why? Because God is perfect "in Him is no sin" [1 Jn.3:4]. When a God with that character creates something, it can only be perfect [Gen.18:14 Deut.32:4 Jer.32:27] and very good [Gen.1:31].

The Bible says repeatedly man needs a Saviour. Evolution preaches the opposite; nature is red in tooth and claw. The Bibles position is very clear - death is not the result of a long life, but the penalty for sin. Jesus Christ, the Creator (made flesh) shed His blood in death to redeem/restore sinners and ultimately to liberate the whole universe from this curse of death and bloodshed brought in by Adam. If the evolutionary story is true, the whole point of the Gospel ('good news') message is lost, because Adam's predecessors would have been clawing or clubbing each other to death in a world of bloodshed. You wrote,

>>Even if we can get a snapshot of how His will operates that would be enough. I personally feel these questions will never be answered. We can only get a glimpse. Einstein wanted to "know His thoughts"...<<

If you are really genuine and have an open mind, then we have the "snapshot" already. We not only know His "will" but His words. He says, "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient.." [Isa 1:18-19]. He says, 'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.' [Jer 33:3]. You wrote,

>>Well...no God of mine should be so mysterious and unknowable...and I don't mean just "the word" or matters of "sinfulness"..I mean revealing His way if we want to know...or can handle it.<<

True, the human mind can't comprehend the infinite. I believe it's impossible to know God apart from His Son. But not only is God 'knowable' through Christ [Jn.14:6] He desires to be known. Knowing God starts when we recognize we are sinners and accept the Saviour. When we see we are totally unworthy in His sight and accept His plan [Christ dying for our sin] then there's hope.

I wrote, 'It takes intelligence to produce something intelligent. How can anything void of intelligence produce something as complex as the human brain? You answer,

>>Or the wing mechanics of the millions of species of insects or the neuron that is even present in the smallest of creatures..(same stuff that composes our brains)..we are not alone or "special" as creation types like to think... <<

That does not answer the question. There's no intelligence in nothing to make something. That's why there's a God. There's a huge difference between "our brains" and the 'smallest of creatures'. You really have a 'small minded' view of the brain. Prof. Asimov [Biochemist Boston Univ] wrote, "..in man is a three-pound brain which, as far as we know, is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the universe". [Smithsonian Institute Journal Jun.1970 p.10]. This complexity which you dismiss lightly as nothing 'special' is far, far beyond the greatest complexity in man made technology. Dawkins wrote, "The more statistically improbable a thing is, the less can we believe that it just happened by blind chance. Superficially the obvious alternative to chance is an intelligent Designer" [Necessity of Darwinism. New Scientist vol.94 15 April 82 p.130].

So, for those desiring to know God, He has revealed Himself perfectly through His Son. You replied to this,

>>Again..God should reveal his ways in other ways...this is not ignoring...this is searching ....is cloning creating in our image or His?<<

But there is no other way to come to God but on His terms. Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". [Jn.14:6]. And He said, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." [Jn.3:3]. This is a 'spiritual birth' [Jn.3:5] that results in you becoming a Christian. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD." [Jer 29:13-14]. Let me know when this happens.

Regards
Mark


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