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Hi Roland

>>Hi Mpp: I have no objection to people mocking or attacking The Church of Jesus Christ, but I would prefer that you validate your comments with truthful references rather than insinuate with half-truths and dishonesty. I am sure you mean well, however, I am also sure that our Father in Heaven would not want you to promote lies to his children.<<

Firstly, I'm not "mocking" Mormonism, but want to help folk escape or avoid it. I can validate my "comments with truthful references " because Mormonism is built on "half-truths and dishonesty…. lies " (they won't tell you that). And secondly, I'm sure God "would not want you" fooled by, or promoting lies, don't you think?

You say I'm "dishonest", a liar, or promoting 'lies' when I say this - "Mormons won't tell you that they considered the Negro race and all brown-skinned people to be inferior, having the "Curse of Cain " because of their skin colour and curly hair. People of such races were forbidden entry into Mormon temples and priesthood orders until 1978". You reply -

>>This is a complete fabrication and I would suggest you know that.<<

No it's not a "complete fabrication", "lie" or "half-truth", but an observation from reading Mormon literature and I 'suggest you know that'. I'm amazed if you don't. For at least 140 years the Mormon Church taught the African people are "inferior " and are "cursed" by God. Yes, Mormon leaders (considered "prophets, seers and revelators" by their church) have taught this, the people only follow their leaders.

>>Prior to 1978 it was purely people of Hamite (Negro) ancestry that were only allowed to hold the priesthood with special permission from the Lord. In fact, even while Joseph Smith was alive there was one person of Hamite descent who held the priesthood.<<

The bible is a complete and final revelation, there is no new revelations only to Mormons. But Joseph Smith would disagree, in the 'Official Records' he said – "Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (History of the Church, vol.5 pg. 218-219).

Brigham Young said, "You see some classes of the human family that are Black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly without the blessing of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind... the Lord put a mark on him, which is the flat nose and Black skin... that they should be the "servant of servants " (Journal of Discourses, Vol.7 pg 290-291) Sounds very "
inferior " don't you think? Keep in mind Brigham Young also said, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, p.95). You can check these 'Official Records' yourself.

Brigham Young also said, "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.10 p.110).

And Bruce McConkie said, "the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin….The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of contain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing, based on His eternal laws of justice…" (Mormon Doctrine, 10th printing, pgs.527-528)

Bruce McConkie - "Racial degeneration, resulting in differences in appearance and spiritual aptitude, has arisen since the fall. We know the circumstances under which the posterity of Cain (and later of Ham) were cursed with what we call negroid racial characteristics." (Mormon Doctrine, pg 616).

>>The Church has never taught that black people are inferior or that white people are superior. The Book of Mormon itself condemns those who believe they are superior because of their white skin (Jacob 3:8-9).<<

The problem is "the Book of Mormon" has had thousands of changes (over 8,400). The Pearl of Great Price (over 1,600). The Doctrine of Covenants (over 2,800). You say "the church has never taught black people are inferior" how does that square with the above comments? Joseph Fielding Smith was a little kinder and said, "I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and have their place in our Church." (Look magazine, Oct.22, 1963 p79).

But then he said, "There is a reason why one man is born black and with the other disadvantages…the Negro, evidently is receiving the reward he merits" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1 p.66-67)

And Joseph Fielding Smith - "Joseph Smith had declared that the negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder." (The Way to Perfection, pg.105-106). He also said, "We will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren-children of God-not withstanding Their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness" (The Way of Perfection, p.101-102).

And John Taylor? He said, "After the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God… " (Journal of Discourses Vol.22, pg.336). Very nasty!! What do you say to that?

And Orson Pratt? He said, "The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to received such a degraded parentage upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being. " (Journal of Discourses Vol.I p.63)

But Mark E Peterson would certainly talk in terms of "
black people (as) inferior ". He said, "At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse-as a punishment and as a sign to all others….And He (God) certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may certainly say he dropped an iron curtain here. The Negro was cursed as to the Priesthood, and therefore, was cursed as to the blessings of the Priesthood…. " (Race Problems - As They Affect The Church (address given at Brigham Young University).

So why should I even start to consider your happy "
testimonies of Black members " of the Mormon Church? You accuse me of "dishonesty" of a "complete fabrication" or telling lies. In the light of what Mormon leaders said there is no doubt. It's not what Joe-Mormon says that matters but what's taught as doctrine throughout Mormon history, by their 'apostles'.

I mentioned also Mormons won't say that Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr [as claimed], but was killed in a gun battle while he, his brother Hyrum & several friends were trying to escape from Carthage jail. They were in jail for burning down the local newspaper which had printed damaging information about them. Smith killed two men and wounded a third. He also gave the Masonic hailing sign of distress while being gunned down. Martyrs don't shoot back! You reply -

>>This just a plain lie, I can only assume you have not consulted even the official state records and statements by State officials; I guess you believe in the "end justifies the means " principal.<<

I "can only assume you have not consulted" anything but tailor made "Official" Mormon "records". Instead you just believe everything they tell you. Did you know Mormonism teaches (1) there are many Gods, (2) God was once a man, (3) God is limited, (4) man may become God, (5) Mrs God, (6) no virgin birth, (7) Jesus and Satan are brothers, (8) Jesus was married, (9) the bible's authority denied, (10) all other churches are false? Need I go on? You know what Joseph Smith said?

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it, I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. " (Joseph Smith. History of the Church, Vol. 6. p. 408, 409). You say,

>>I can assure you that even a cursory reading of the Bible does not accept that, and even if the Mormon Church were not God's church you would stand condemned.<<

Well even "a cursory reading of the bible" indicates no prophet of God ever spoke like Smith. Yet the Mormon people trust their eternal salvation in a system set-up by him. See Daniel 4:28.33, King Nebuchadnezzar had such pride and was driven out to live with the animals by God. Just one month after delivering the above quoted speech, Joseph Smith was killed by a mob (but only after he had shot and killed two of the mob himself. See the "Official Records" - "History of the Church ", Vol. 7, pp 102,103. That's no lie. Or are you telling me Mormon literature is full of lies?

>>I am happy to cover the vast number of other inaccuracies, if you so desire. Is it not simpler to put an argument with truth and logic rather than lies? Regards, Roland<<

You have heaps of explaining to do already, don't you think? Perhaps you should retract from calling me a liar first, it would show you are honest and now accept the truth. If you are going to send dozens of emails, be prepared for a shock when you find out you got it wrong.


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