Want Some Answers ???Mormonism
Hi there, thanks for the reply.
>>I see that you are for some unexplicable reason interchanging the terms "universal resurrection" with "salvation". In Mormon doctrine the terms are NOT interchangable. Therefore your point is moot because of the faulty comingling of terminology. This is a common ploy of thoughtless antimormons such as yourself, to attempt to redefine Mormonism so that you can discredit it. However, you have in no way debunked Mormonism because your argument was spurious in every way.<<
Mormon terminology is so confusing even Mormons can't decide salvation is by works or faith, or a mixture. That's why they say different things (as we will see). Salvation in Mormonism has a two fold meaning: Simple bodily resurrection of all people (Alma 42:23) and forgiveness of sins. In the Bible however, salvation is the forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and a future eternal life with God (1 Cor.15:1-4; Rom.6:23; 10:9-10).
When Mormon's use words 'Saviour', God, salvation, grace, works, gift, Jesus Christ, etc they don't mean the same as Christians. The bible and Mormonism have little in common. Mormonism is contrary to every major biblical pronouncement.
>>Moreover, your lack of scholarship is apparant even furthur when the context of Nephi chapter two is examined closely. In fact, it has nothing to do with the topic of universal resurrection. The topic is redemption and how it comes about. I will now quote it for you in the next paragraph.<<
You are disagreeing with your own church. Mormon's say 2 Nephi 2 does refer to a universal resurrection. In Mormonism beyond the resurrection, man must earn his place in heaven because that part of 'salvation' is NOT free. Not all men meet the conditions for that. For example, some miss out on Mormon baptism which is "absolutely essential for salvation". This means Mormon baptism is also a work, or another condition.
The bible however, says salvation is not universal but based on belief of each individual (Rom.1:16 Heb.9:28 Eph.2:8-9).
>>Your point that salvation in Mormonism comes about by "works" is also mooted out by the self same chapter. In verse 3 of the same Book and Chapter it states clearly that " Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed because of the rightousness of thy Redeemer, for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men"<<
That verse doesn't say there are 'no works for salvation'!! No because we both know 'salvation' is conditional on accepting Mormonism. Outside Mormonism you can't be saved. Look at 2 Ne.2:4. After the "resurrection" men are "judged according to their works"…. Thus none but the truly penitent are saved". That's a salvation "according to their works" ('works' defined by Mormonism).
>>Therefore, in LDS doctrine, the causitive and necessary condition for salvation is directly attributed to Jesus Christ. In no chapter or verse in the officialy constituted scriptures of the LDS Church does it ever state or infer that salvation is brought about by works.<<
Nonsense, "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ…. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone…" Joseph Fielding Smith, (10th Prophet,) Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pg.135. So in LDS doctrine the blood of Christ is insufficient for salvation and yet another work is added!
The LDS church has consistently attacked the Biblical doctrine of Salvation by God's Grace through Faith alone. In Apostle James Talmage's book, The Articles of Faith, twice he refers to justification by Faith alone as a "pernicious doctrine" and says: "The Sectarian Dogma of Justification by Faith Alone has exercised an influence for evil." (p.107, 480) The Bible: "We being justified by faith have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.5:1). You wrote,
>>In fact, the Doctrine and Covenants (6:13) states that salvation is "the greatest of all GIFTS" that the Lord has to offer. Thefore, logic should now confirm to you that in so much as salvation is a "gift", it cannot come by works, otherwise it would not be a "gift" (sneeb)<<
Yes Mormon terminology is confusing. The word 'gift' doesn't mean 'gift'. This is why Brigham Young said Christ's blood is inadequate to atone and works are needed: "Will you love your brothers and sisters like wise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?. . . . This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if be wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol 4, p.219-20). Only in the bible gift means a free gift NOT worked for (Rom.4:4-5). Regarding the "3rd Article" you wrote,
>>Once again, your unfamilairity with Mormon Doctrine and apparantly the Bible as well has led you to yet another faulty exercise in futile reasoning. <<
But the article states, "We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel". Be honest, that clearly makes Mormon salvation something worked for. 'Good works are necessary for salvation' (Articles of Faith, p.92). Regarding 2 Nephi 25:23 Moroni 10:32 you write,
>>The word or term "qualify to receive grace" is no where found in either 2 Nephi 25:23<<
The idea is found. In order to 'qualify to receive grace' salvation is by works 2 Ne.25:23 "it is by grace we a saved After All We Can Do…we keep the law…". I highlight - "AFTER ALL WE CAN DO". That is "after" a life of keeping the law one can qualify to receive grace. You wrote,
>>nor in Moroni 10:32. Once again, your blatant insertion of terminology is pointless and deceptive. What the verses do say ... and in particular Moroni 10:32, refers to the processes leading to "perfection", so that ... "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ",. This is coupled with the admonition ... to "love god with all of ones mind, might and strength.<<
Yes grace is coupled with conditions. Mormon conditions!! Read correctly "if you deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength then…. you may be perfect.." (Moroni 10:32) Note, "if you..." and "may be..." That is human effort and life 'processes' of works. In contradiction the bible "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).
>>I should also point out to you that similar language appears in the Bible and is directly attributed to the Lord himself when he says " if you love me, keep my commandments"<<
But "If you love me…" does NOT mean, "If you want to be saved…". Salvation is by grace, a free gift, not by keeping "commandments". You wrote,
>>The important point for you to grasp is that the Bible and Book of Mormon as well as all other LDS scriptures are fully compatible and in 100% agreement with the Bible. <<
Then explain if the Book of Mormon was completed about AD.400 why does it contain so many quotations from the KJV published in 1611? One can find chapters of the AV, and word for word. Mormons do not recognize the bible as the final court of appeal in religious belief. For them, it's incomplete and inadequate.
Mormonism believes (1) in many God's, (2) God the Father was once a man, (3) God's must have wives, (4) Mrs God, (5) Jesus and Lucifer brothers, (6) Mary and God married, (7) Jesus a polygamist, (8) God limited, etc. These are not 'compatible' or in 'agreement' with the bible. The Book of Mormon is a work of man (1 Nephi 1:3 19:6 Jacob 1:1,2 7:26 Alma 40:20 Omni 1:1-4) the bible is of God (2 Tim.3:16).
>>Both compilations of scripture make it abundantly clear that the Alpha and Omega of salvation starts and ends with the Lord Jesus Christ and that by no other name can or may men be resurrected, saved, and perfected. As to if in between the initiation of grace by the Lord and ones ultimate salvation the Lord sees fit to require any degree of obediance to his commandments in no way can be logically interpreted to mean that salvation in both instances is by grace. (sneeb)<<
The bible says, "he saved us (past tense) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Tit.3.5). I'm saved already waiting my new body. Mormons can never claim to be "saved" even after baptism they might fall away. Brigham Young claimed those who leave the Mormon Church would turn "wrinkled" and "black." He pronounced this curse "...but let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332). There have been millions leave the Mormon Church where are the "black and wrinkled" ones? You wrote,
>>No mormon scripture proposes nor asserts that sin is a virtue. You are going of half cocked now. (sneeb)<<
What? "…give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections that you may learn to be more wise than we have been…" (Mormon 9:31). "The devil told the truth, I do not blame Mother Eve, I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything" Brigham Young (Desert News June 18 1873 p.309). Mormon scholars believe the 'gods' that created this earth actually planned man's fall into sin so man "could begat mortal children" (J Widstoe A Rational Theology Deseret publ. p.27)
>>Faith is a condition in any mainline orthordox christian dogma. So to is the biblical statement that to be saved one must endure to the end. Clearly, you are a at best a fringe cult member with vastly differing doctrines than the body of Christ even liberally defined. You are welcome to your beliefs but I must say that they ring extremely apostate to me. (sneeb)<<
Those who mix works/grace claim 'one must endure to the end to be saved". Their idea of 'salvation' contains conditions and works; it's not a free gift. Because you haven't read the bible carefully you are in a cult thinking salvation is a process with "commandments" human effort, 'endurance', ceremonies, and a reward for works. You reply,
>>No, they for the most part relate the process of exaltation, which in mormonism is quite a bit different than salvation. Clearly, you are not a Mormon scholar, not even close my friend. (Sneeb)<<
In Mormonism salvation IS a 'process'. This Mormon scholar says, "This is called salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel… we are saved after all we can do…it is received only on condition of faith, repentance, baptism and enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God" (What Mormons Think of Christ p.33 B.R McConkie). It's a process because Mormons believe "The atonement of Jesus Christ does not answer for our individual personal sins, which are forgiven only on the condition of repentance, baptism, and a good life each of us " (Instructor Oct. 1958 p.318).
In contradiction the bible says, salvation is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast " (Eph.2:8-9).
>>All of this I agree with, with the modification that none of it contradicts any Mormon doctrines. I have showen why previously. (Sneeb)<<
No you don't. You hold a contradiction. In one sentence say 'free, free, free', in another say, "Commandments", 'endurance', conditions" etc. Otherwise, 'Mormon doctrines' contradict what you 'agree with' - "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation" (Miracle of Forgiveness, S.W. Kimball, p.206).
So you agree with me? The bible says "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). It is "not of him that wills, or of him that strives, but of God that shows the mercy" (Rom.9:16). You reply,
>>Your quotations were followed with gross misrepresentations by dint of word substitutions as I have shown. You are either deceitful, as your own words suggest, or just a very poor thinker. Im sorry to have to say that. (Sneeb)<<
You are welcome to correct wrong 'quotations'. But 'poor thinkers' can't see their own 'contradictions'. They claim 'salvation is free' then insist on 'conditions' and 'processes'. Mormonism is full of 'conditions', 'commandments' and contradictions. How can salvation be a 'free gift' if there's 'conditions' and 'enduring to the end'? That's not free, but a reward for effort.
How did I become a Christian? By the new birth - not a lengthily 'process' of 'keeping commandments'. Jesus said, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again" [Jn.3:6-7]. Those truly born again have the gift of salvation now and sin removed. I'm trusting in what God did through Christ on the cross. His blood removed my sin. Mormon's say "keeping of commandments… will cleanse away the stain of sin…" (Journal of Discourses vol.2 p.4). And we know that's not true.
Its awesome to have the power and joy of the true Holy Spirit guiding my life daily. And the assurance of knowing if I died today, I have eternal life in God's presence. A wonderful freedom in knowing Christ - not "knowing of Him," but knowing Him! And anyone, right now, can have a personal relationship with the living God through Jesus Christ, and the assurance of eternal life. How does one become a Christian?
1) Admit that (on your own) you are separated from God by sin, unable to save yourself (Rom.3:23; Isa.64:6).
2) Be willing to turn from sin, to let Him change your life (Acts 26:20).
3) Believe that Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty of your personal sins and will take them away (Rom.5:8,9). Accept this in faith as a gift from God (Eph.2:8,9).
4) Invite Christ into your life to be your personal Lord and Savior (Rev.3:20 Jn.1:12 1 Jn.5:11.13).
5) Read God's Word (the Bible) daily and allow Him to take over the management of your life. Let His Holy Spirit fill you and lead you daily. Seek out a Christian church of believers who stand on God's Word and it alone.
If you need to talk with someone for prayer and counseling on becoming a Christian and walking daily in victory with the Lord, let me know.
True Christianity is all about a Person not a religion. Salvation is receiving Christ as your personal Saviour from your sin. You reply,
>>I have no problem with this statement. (Sneeb)<<
Then what's stopping you from becoming a born again Christian? Pray the sinner's prayer, ask Christ into your life. He is God in the flesh, only He can take away your sin. Otherwise, you are trusting your soul to Joseph Smith.
>>Mormonism does not teach that ones soul should be entrusted to any man. Since we accept J.S. as an apostle of God, our relationship to him is in effect the same as any other true Apostle. (Sneeb)<<
Mormonism demands you trust Smith or you can't be saved. "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside the Mormon Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine p.670 B.R McConkie). Why don't you leave Mormonism today and trust Christ alone to save?
>>I have quoted to your from official Mormon scripture that specifically states that redemption comes exclusively by and through Jesus Christ.<<
And I have quoted Mormon scripture and quotes that specifically disagree with you. Here's another, "Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions)" (Journal of Discourses, Vol.3 p.247 1856). That "states that redemption" is anything but "exclusively by and through Jesus Christ".
>>Since the book you refer to is outside the pale of offical LDS doctrine, I have no real obligation to adhere to or defend McConkies views nor do I wish to argue your interpreation of it. To do so would be pointless. (sneeb)<<
Then Mormonism has no creditability and is deceitful. If it's not worth defending it's not worth believing. Mormonism asks us to believe their literature but will suddenly cowardly disown it (that is indefensible).
If what McConkie said is not "official LDS doctrine" why do so many Mormons believe it, and why do Mormon authorities teach it? Eg., another quote, "There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1 p.188). If you think J.S's Book of Mormon is unimportant I would not to argue with you.
By admission you are disobedient to the authority of the Mormon prophetic office. McConkie is one of the 12 Apostles who demand obedience. The message for June 1945, stated: "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan - it is God's plan" (Improvement Era, June 1945 p.354). H.C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, clarifies further: "But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6 p.32).
You are not a creditable witness or have authority to speak for Mormonism which makes further discussion pointless.