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Hi Sneeb, Thanks for the reply.

Mormon terminology is confusing even Mormons can't decide if salvation is by faith or works or both.

>>Your opinion. Nothing to support this statement. (Sneeb)<<

I've offered evidence showing while you have one view on salvation other Mormon's differ. They say things you reject as 'unofficial'. But in fact you are now saying (more and more) that salvation requires works. Salvation in Mormonism relates to a "bodily resurrection of all people (Alma 42:23)" to this you reply,

>>What? Alma 42:23 states that the attonement brings about resurrection ... which brings men back into the prescence of God to be judged. It does not say nor imply that bodily resurrection brings about salvation. (Sneeb)<<

That's right, I never said it. You confirm my comment. Remember I wrote " that part of salvation is NOT free ". You should have said nothing. The Bible says salvation is the forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and a future eternal life with God (1 Cor.15:1-4; Rom.6:23; 10:9-10). You reply,

>>Your point is already mooted since your assumption that resurrection equals salvation is a false assumption. (Sneeb<<

No that was your 'assumption'. Remember? Originally you referred to 2 Nephi 2 as meaning "SALVATION is FREE". I had said 'Mormon's say it refers to a universal resurrection', not 'universal salvation' you reply.

>>Who says this? Quote someone of standing in the LDS who says this. Again your opinion (Sneeb)<<

You just did. Regarding 2 Nephi 2:4 the "assumption that resurrection equals salvation is a false assumption". Yes correct because in Mormonism beyond the resurrection, man must earn his place in heaven because that part of 'salvation' is NOT free. Not all men meet the conditions for that. Or are you NOW telling me 2 Nephi 2:4 says all men are saved freely? No! Well do we just forget about conditions, rules, commandments, etc? No you cannot. Look at Moroni 8:11 "…. Behold baptism is unto repentance to the filling the commandments unto the remission of sins". That says salvation in Mormonism is NOT free but requires works.

>>Mormons are "christians". Even orthodox christians dont agree how salvation comes about and therefore how it is defined. (Lordship vs. No Lordship Christians. Since you have not defined how use these terms nor how Mormons use them, you are again stating your unsubstantiated opinion ( Sneeb)<<

Mormons are not Christians, all their doctrines are radically different. " How salvation comes about and defined …"? Jesus said, if you want to see the kingdom of God you must be 'born again' (Jn.1:13 3:6-8 see also 1 Pet 1:23 1 Jn.2:29 1 Jn.3:9 1 Jn.4:7 1 Jn.5:4 1 Jn.5:18). This is a 'spiritual birth’, not a baptism (Compare with 2 Cor.5:17 1 Pt.2:2). The Greek reads ‘born from above'. Without this, you are still in your sin, not a Christian.

So the bible and Mormonism have little in common. Mormonism is contrary to every major biblical pronouncement. You reply,


>>Your opinion. So far, all you have done is stated your opinion and done nothing to substantiate it. About what I expected from an apostate christian CULT leader. (Sneeb)<<

But its true, there is a vast difference between biblical Christianity and Mormonism. When you use words like 'Saviour', God, salvation, Holy Spirit, faith, grace, works, gift, Jesus Christ, etc they don't have the same meaning for Christians. The fact we disagree about every doctrine so far proves it isn't "opinion" but fact.

>>The bible, which you dont seem to know very well, makes it clear that all men are judged according to their works. Revelation 20:13 - death and hell gave up their dead and EVERY man according to their works" I would say that Mormonism is MORE consistant with the BIBLE then your version of the gospel. (Sneeb)<<

So NOW you are saying 'salvation is not 'free' but according to works'. That's the way you apply Rev.20:13. As I wrote, "in Mormonism beyond the resurrection, man must earn his place in heaven because that part of 'salvation' is NOT free." You have proven me correct. Read Rev.20:13 note, it refers to the final judgment of all the unbelievers of all ages. It is NOT a judgment where salvation is rewarded because of good works.

I wrote "The bible however, says salvation is not universal but based on belief of each individual (Rom.1:16 Heb.9:28 Eph.2:8-9)". You reply,


>>Mormonism says that resurrection is Universal. You are still beating your nonsensical drum trying to create the impression that Mormonism teaches something it does not. I find it incredibly odd on your part that YOU seek to define the Mormon faith, whilst you are not even LDS nor possessing even a basic understanding of it. I think your problem is that you are trying to understand it through the filter of your own cognitions inbred into you by your upbringing. That is simply not going to avail you of any meaningful understanding. Then again, you clearly DONT want to understand it. (Sneeb)<<

Your comment doesn't answer my point but side-tracks. Nice to be thinking about my 'upbringing' but I base my belief on the bible, not my past. The bible is my final authority, with everything God wants me to know. The BoM isn't needed (or believable).

I wrote, "Look at 2 Ne.2:4. After the "resurrection" men are "judged according to their works"…. Thus none but the truly penitent are saved". That's salvation "according to their works" ('works' defined by Mormonism)." You reply,


>>As if I have already proven from the Bible, (see Revelation 20 12:13 men ARE judged by their works. This is hilarious, you are contesting and contrasting YOUR beliefs with the bible. THere is your inconsistancy. HILARIOUS !!! (Sneeb)<<

Yes but in Mormonism men are saved "according to their works" ('works' defined by Mormonism). Salvation is not free. Outside Mormonism you can't be saved. Rev.20:13 does NOT say 'men are saved by their works'. It refers to the final judgment of all the unbelievers of all ages. It's NOT a judgment where salvation is rewarded for good works.

>>Once again your ignorance of the BIBLE is apalling. The Bible does teach that certain sins, specifically blasphmey against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven "in this life nor the life to come" I can see now, that your teachings probably have misled many aspiring christians towards a hellbound conclusion. You sir, are a false teacher of the lowest rank. I plead with you to cease and desist from your false teaching lest your wind up in hell. (Sneeb)<<

In the bible this "blasphemy" sin is a deliberate rejection of the blood of Christ shed for the atonement of sin. The ultimate sin that puts men beyond the opportunity for salvation. Joseph Smith however taught there were "sins so grievous " that the "only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone". So he believed Christ's blood wasn't sufficient for salvation and some people had to be killed, so their blood could atone. Do you agree? JS adds another work (murder) necessary for salvation.

The Biblical doctrine of Salvation is by "God's Grace through Faith alone". That's what Christians mean by salvation is a free gift and by grace without works. You reply,


>>Faith ALONE is not a bible teaching, but a Calvinist teaching. THe BIBLE teache NOT salvation by faith alone, but salvation by faith THRU grace. You are again completely ignorant of the bible and unfit to teach. (Sneeb)<<

Paul said, "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness. Now to him that works the reward is not reckoned as grace, but as debt. But to him that does not work, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness." (Rom.4:3-5) It is faith alone in the work of the cross. Not 'faith and works', or 'grace and works'.

Salvation is a free gift, not a reward for works. Calvin taught "faith thru grace" (See his Commentary Eph.2:8 Ages 98). It is not 'faith' that saves, it is what 'faith is in that saves. Human faith is a human procurement and can be faulty or weak. What God did on the cross is powerful. My faith is in what God has done for me on the cross, why don't you have faith? Mormon's don't have faith in what Christ has done, they're trusting their church, its doctrines (ie Baptism) and works.

Salvation in Arminian and Mormon theology isn't secure. One can 'fall away' and be lost, works must be maintained or salvation is lost. But in the bible God has promised "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee". (Heb.13:5).

So in "Mormonism the word 'gift' doesn't mean 'gift'.' You reply,


>>A lie (Sneeb) <<

How can 'gift' mean free gift? The bible says "…to him that works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt." But in Mormonism all those commandments, conditions, endurance, rituals, etc 'qualify' one for salvation. So salvation is not a free gift but a "reward" for "debt" or payment.

I mentioned that Brigham Young said Christ's blood is inadequate to atone and works are needed. He wrote that if someone has "committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood" he asked fellow Mormon's if they love them, "to shed their blood." The idea is "spill" their "blood on the earth in order that he may be saved." To this you reply,


>>Such as blaspemy against the Holy Spirit. (Sneeb)<<

Yes indeed, "a lie". Yet this lie comes from a top Mormon leader. Mormons know little about the awful past of their church and what their leaders taught. I mentioned that "Mormon salvation is something worked for, 'good works are necessary for salvation." And NOW at last, you finally admit I'm correct and reply,

>>Rediculous. Paul himself taught his followers in Christ to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling. (Phillppians 2:12) Likewise, Peter exhorted the Saints of God to "give dillignece to make their callings and elections made sure". What you are saying is Mormonims is guility of is following the words of these true apostles. Again, it is YOU who has the aduterated gospel and it is YOU who is out of step with the bible. Repent. (Sneeb)<<

Finally you admit that in Mormonism salvation requires works. In the bible the expression 'work out their salvation' is not saying good works earn salvation. Paul always emphasizes salvation is not by works but by faith in Christ. There are two explanations for Ph.2:12-14. [1] He’s saying workout the salvation that God has placed within. God has given eternal life as a free gift and this should be lived out by lives of practical holiness. [2] Salvation here may mean the solution of their problem at Philippi. They were plagued with squabbles and strife. So Paul says the answer is to apply mind of Christ. So Christians do their part and God does His. But that does not apply to the forgiveness of sins or the new birth. Redemption is the work of God alone.

Regarding, 'Giving diligence to make their call and election sure' Peter means, of course, more sure. One cannot be sure of "call and election" without been purged (v.9) from former sin.

While the security of the believer is objective; (something that can't be disturbed), assurance of salvation however can be disturbed by the life one lives. If the Christian life is not lived in sincerity and truth, one is bound to wonder if they really have been born again. So while Christ has done everything necessary for salvation and keep His children saved, the Christian life is something that needs to be worked at. This is not salvation by works. As Paul says, "For the children being NOT YET BORN, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Rom.9:11). That refutes the Mormon ideas about salvation.

Concerning 2 Ne.25:23 "it is by grace we a saved After All We Can Do … we keep the law…". You reply,


>>you reason skills are non existant. It is nearly impossible to communicate with you. I have already demonstrated that the Book of Mormon states salvation is by grace. The "after all you can do" clause does not preclude grace nor modify it. What it does is allow for the admonitions of Paul to actually occur, the working out of ones salvation. You on the other hand are of the misguided belief that the teaching of Paul and Peter are to be ignored in favor of accepting some form of cheap grace. (sneeb)<<

So "after all you can do" is added to 'grace' or one can't 'qualify to receive grace'. Did you know that you have come full circle? Originally you insisted "The word or term "qualify to receive grace" is no where found in either 2 Nephi 25:23". But NOW you have just said the term allows a "working out" of salvation to receive grace. Without "working", grace would be "cheap grace", so if you stop working so does grace. You work for grace, grace has a cost. So the Mormon definition of grace is not biblical.

The bible says "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9). To this you reply,


>>Selective bible quoting on your part... the bible teaches conditional salvation repeatedly. See Hebrews 10:26 or Hebrews 6:4-6. Also, the requirement to endure to the end should clue you in. The distinction you miss in the bible is that while grace is free, the retaining of it is NOT.<<

If I take Heb.10:26 as you want, then any sin after receiving the truth eliminates any potential for being forgiven. The expression ‘if we sin willfully [10:26] means we cannot expect another sacrifice for sins. Yet the Bible never makes a distinction between which sins Christ’s death paid for. If there’s a sacrifice for some sin, why not a sacrifice for all sin a Christian commits? If this passage teaches what you say, then once someone is lost, they're lost forever.

The Jewish epistle of Hebrews has a number warnings calculated for the mixed company of readers. Those who were mere professors of Christianity. They who were warned aren't merely hypocrites; they regarded their experiences genuine. They had been "enlightened" (Heb, 6:4-9) (Heb. 10.32 "illuminated") and "tasted" of the heavenly gift. But it is NOT said they had faith. Just as the men in Mt.7: 21-23 are not conscious hypocrites - they are utterly surprised at their exclusion.

Many believe in God today, but don't have real faith [Jas.2:14 Heb.4.2]. Many observe rituals, works, baptism, conditions, customs, commandments, etc, yet don't have saving faith in Christ's work on the cross which alone is sufficient to remove all sin (Heb.8.12).

Even belief that God's Word is correct about man's sinful nature and the need of a new birth, won't save unless we obey and humble ourselves. I was 'born again' in obedience to the command of Jesus (Jn.1.13 3.3,8).

There was a moment in life when on my knees I prayed and admitted my need of the Saviour; that I couldn't save myself, so I asked Jesus into my heart. And thanked Him for dying for me. God honoured that prayer and the Holy Spirit entered my heart.

This was the new birth, a renewal, made alive to God (Jn.3.3, 7.39 Titus 3:5-6). But it was only because of this birth the bible became the means whereby God speaks His mind and purposes to me. The bible is not really understood by those without God's Spirit. God cannot speak to unbelievers as He does His own. So you might know scripture but be spiritually blind.

The Holy Spirit came within and opened my eyes. If you are not born of the Spirit you won't grasp the 'things of God' (1 Cor.2:10). Spiritual realities require spiritual sight. Without God's Spirit people don't have the same capacity to understand scripture. “The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man". (1 Cor 2:14-15). So one can have a twisted view of the Gospel, grace, Christ, God, the Holy Spirit, salvation, eternal judgment, etc. because they haven't been born again.

Don't expect to understand biblical salvation until you are 'born again' (The first step of true biblical 'faith'). The new birth is a work of God, and occurs when we bow our knees and pray the simple prayer of repentance and confession. We realize our sinful state before God, and that His Son died for us. We humbly confess our sin and receive the free gift of grace, trusting Him alone to wash us clean. He promised He will. This is the most important issue you are facing, everything depends on your choice. Have you prayed this prayer?

Regards
Mark



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