Want Some Answers ???Mormonism
Interesting, "Sneeb" emphasized salvation is free, without works. You emphasize works as intrinsically woven into salvation. Which is it?" (Rom.5:9). Wow, a double salvation! You wrote,
>>I also think we should set a few ground rules here, again to expedite matters and conserve time. Unless you want to grant me the right to define orthodox christianty as I see fit, then you should not attempt to define Mormon doctrine….you are not the expert on Mormomism, becuase you have not lived it.<<
Strange indeed, one can't 'define Mormon doctrine' unless they "lived it". And to me the word 'orthodox' is also ambiguous. Why not be biblical? The bible our standard, not orthodoxy.
>>Joseph Smith himself described the process of salvation in terms of "by faith and works, through grace"….So, basically you are telling me that not only do you think works has nothing to do with salvation but that you also think faith does not either. Faith "ALONE" just like grace "ALONE" does not appear in any bible prior to Martin Luther<<
No I never said "faith does not matter". In fact, you seem to have the habit of making-up what people believe then trashing it. And as far as 'any bible' is concerned, you ignore EVERY bible. I can't find ANY bible (but BoM) that clouds the concept of faith/grace alone.
The bible denies Smith's idea of 'faith and works'. "A person is put right with God ONLY through faith, and not by doing what the law commands... it is of faith that it might be by grace" (Rom.3:20. 4:15-16). Abraham "believed God and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous". That was before he offered Isaac, this was the sign "God would justify the heathen through faith" (Gal.3:6,8). No mention of works (or Joe Smith either).
>>neither will the method of attacking the character of Joseph Smith bear any fruit for you.<<
Joseph Fielding Smith - "Mormonism...must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground." Yet when the "ground" of his having been "a prophet of God" is examined reasonably, it begins to look more like swampland. He was a mystic who spent most of his time digging for imaginary buried treasure (addicted to Cpt. Kidd's legendary board).
Joe Smith was described by fellows as the most immoral person they knew. 62 people in Palmyra NY signed an affidavit calling him "destitute of moral character". The Berrian collection (NY public library) has volumes written by Mormon men and women, and Mormon leaders who knew him personally and referred to "the outright immorality of Smith".
>>the point being the works and deeds of Joseph Smith, having nothing to do with what the LDS scritprues say.<<
"Stop telling lies" (1 Pe.3:10). The Book of Mormon IS the product of JS's imagination, the original 1830 edition states "BY JOSEPH SMITH, JUNIOR AUTHOR AND PROPRIETOR" (p.1). Don't forget, "If it had not been for Joseph Smith… there would be no salvation…" (Mormon Doctrine p.670)
>> In fact, to make your point, you have to essentially NOT contribute to your salvation in any way.<<
Not entirely true. I accepted Christ as Saviour. But as for the gift itself none contribute it remains God's doing and certain. "By His sacrificial death we are put right with God, how much more then will we be saved by Him from God's anger
>>Again, technically speaking, when you contribute belief to faith, and faith and belief to grace, you are in fact adding to the standard of pure grace. Therefore, if you are truly saying you are saved by grace ALONE, then you must not even confess Jesus with your mouth, because that in fact is a physical act, just as is any other work, including baptism. Therefore, from a strictly logical point of view, you violate your own standard, and therefore moot out your own argument. You truly have no basis to decry Mormon concepts of salvation because you actually share them yourself, to one degree or another. All christians do. Moreover, if you call Mormons non christians on this basis, then you yourself are calling yourself a non christian.<<
You're knocking down straw men with strange logic – 'if you say this, therefore that must be, which means the other can't be, so logically you can't be a Christian'. Yeah right.
Your human reasoning says God needs human works. It makes sense to Mormons, but not to Paul. He doesn't say confession or belief violate grace. "Moses wrote that the man that does the righteousness of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is OF FAITH says…. The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the WORD OF FAITH, which we preach…. That if you CONFESS with your mouth the Lord Jesus and BELIEVE in your heart God has raised him from the dead, you WILL BE SAVED. For with the heart a man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation." (Rom.10:9-11).
The phrase "if you love me, keep my commandments".
>>So, you must think that you can be saved without loving the Lord. I would dare say you have a strange relationship to God. (Doug)<<
Once again you imagine what might be, and then what you think must result.
Salvation is not by human 'love', loyalty, effort, or works, but God's love, faithfulness and His work on the cross. Grace cannot demand the least human merit or it ceases to be grace. Love or words are not measured till they add-up and then awarded salvation. In fact, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Rom.5:8). "We love him, because he first loved us" (1 Jn.4:19). Real Christians can say, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn.4:10). Love grows over time. But tell me, why would God demand a relationship of total loyalty yet promise only conditional loyalty in return?
So the Book of Mormon was completed AD.400 yet has quotations from the 1611 bible. How come?
>>Simple, because the those who wrote on the plates from which the book of mormon came had access to the old testament. Clearly there is a linguistic relationship to the 1611 bible and the antecedent scriptural sources. (Doug)<<
So you are saying the 1611 English bible was in existence in AD.400 in America. If you can't use a 'calculator', can you see any 'linguistic' plagiarism? The fact is, one was copied from the other. Both have the English way of talking. Which means, the Book of Mormon is a fraud and was put together after the 1611 bible. So the whole thing is deceitful and it's as 'simple' as that Doug.
Errors in the Book of Mormon have filled volumes. Even the LDS Church has made thousands of corrections since 1830. Some can't be resolved without expunging major parts of the book. Eg 1st & 2nd Nephi supposedly written in the 5th century BC; yet, astonishingly, they quote passages from the New Testament, which was written in the 1st century AD! The book recorded by Alma dates 92 - 53 BC, yet uses the word "Christians."
>>You will have to step up to a higher level of discourse if you wish to take up any more of my time. (Doug)<<
Judging by your calculations above, I need to step down several levels.
>>The bible teaches that salvation can be lost, and I have already given you those verse in Hebrews.<<
I answered those to "Sneeb". If 'salvation can be lost' how could Jesus say about those He gives eternal life "and they shall never perish" (Jn.10:28)? If even one person received eternal life and lost it through sin, will they not perish? Wouldn't that make Jesus' words a lie? Since the Mormon God was "once a man and became God", perhaps he's not as powerful as the bible God so can't guarantee of salvation. The fact is without the new birth and God's Spirit within, one is not a Christian [Jn.3:3 Rom.8:9]. Unregenerate people can never have assurance of salvation and "the peace that passes understanding" [Phil.4:7].
>>Jesus is the vine, you are the fruit, tarnished fruit is cast off, i.e. positional salvation is not final, merely a promise. (doug)<<
Jn.15:5-6 relates to fruit-bearing, not salvation. 'Men gather them', but can't cast into hell. So it doesn't mean a true Christian loses salvation because of a failure to bear fruit. That's impossible and would contradict passages which teach the believer has eternal salvation (Jn.3:15-6, 18, 36). If God takes one of his children away, He takes them to heaven. If he has been fruitless he suffers loss of reward yet 'saved as by fire' (1 Cor.3:15).
Yet that old 'Mormon salvation' is so insecure and uncertain because it relies on human effort, works, conditions and church commands. That's why you can never be 100% sure. Re; Mormon 9:31,
>>You take from that sin is a virtue? (laughing.) (doug)<<
In Genesis the fruit was forbidden, and a curse, but in 1 Nephi 8:10-17 it's regarded as good to 'make one happy'. So Brigham Young said, "The devil told the truth, I do not blame Mother Eve, I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything" (Desert News June 18 1873 p.309). Any who have a diminished view of sin think they can save themselves.
>>Yes, the Devil does tell truths mixed with lies. Did you not know this? (doug)<<
Well, their eyes were opened and knew good and evil but not as 'gods'. The sin of Satan from the beginning was that man may become a god (Gen.3:1-3 Isa.14:12-15 Ez.28:1-10). The lie fooled Eve. Joseph Smith told the same lie "you have to learn to become god's yourselves" (History of the Church vol.6 p.306). And it fools Mormons today.
I mentioned that those who mix works/grace believe they 'must endure to the end to be saved". You reply,
>>ITS IN THE BIBLE... so I see you dont accept the entire bible. Interesting. I knew all along you are not an orthodox christian. (Doug) <<
After reading your email, I believe you "don't accept the bible". You've accepted a number of authorities which corrupt your interpretation of it. Mormonism tells you what to believe about the bible.
Mt.24:13 is commonly understood to refer to the destruction of Jerusalem. To apply it to salvation Christians enjoy today does violence to the context. Read it, Jesus is not referring to spiritual salvation but physical preservation. “The end” refers to that period, not the end of life.
>>The interesting point here is that YOU think repentance has NOTHING to do with salvation?<<
Well I never said that, but Brigham Young did. He said a sinner who repents on their deathbed "will never see heaven" (Journal of Discourses Vol.8 p.61). After all, why worry about the details if salvation is a process?
I say there must be an initial point of time when repentance, confession, regeneration take place and one is born again or one is not a Christian.
>>This is why I view your faith as a CHEAP from of grace. Once you are saved, you have a total license to sin<<
No 'license to sin' but a license to live right (Rom.6:1-2 1 Pe.1:14-16 2:11-12). It's only by faith (Heb.11:6) one can live right. "And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9) I have the righteousness before God you don't have. So Mormon's claiming 'salvation is free' while they desperately try to work for it is a contradiction.
>>Jesus commanded repentance, and I can see that you have very little regard for what Jesus said.<<
I obeyed Jesus (Jn.1.13 3.3,8) have you? On my knees I repented and admitted the need for a washing from sin. I knew I couldn't save myself, so asked Christ into my heart. I thanked Him for dying for me. God honoured that prayer and the Holy Spirit came within. Now I live practicing repentance by God's help. I have "the Spirit of Christ". I'm a child of God not unregenerate or lost in sin "Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" [Rom. 8:9].
>>Again, IF YOU LOVE ME, keep my commandments. This puts you in a position to continually demonstrate your love for and to Christ.<<
Only those who are truly God's children can please God. Nothing wrong in living right, but it can't earn salvation. If God's holiness compels Him to take back the gift of salvation from certain believers because of their sin, then either God compromises His holiness for a time (through their small sins) or man's good works can meet God's requirements for holiness (at least for a short period of time). In that case, Christ died needlessly. Concerning Eph.2:8-9 you reply,
>>So, which is it, by grace alone or by grace through faith. You are already contradicting yourself in a HUGE way.(Doug)<<
Why not read it? "By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast". 'Grace through faith' is the unmerited favor and the undeserved generosity of God. Note the unconditional words "not of yourselves".
This contradicts Mormonism "in a HUGE way" with all it's 'works, conditions, commands, endurance', human effort, etc. Note also, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). "Not of him that wills, or of him that strives, but of God that shows the mercy" (Rom.9:16). But knowing this is pointless unless you are born again.
>>I do agree with you... in so much as you say by grace through faith. When you increase your bible understanding to understand that faith without works is dead, you can see the necessity of works. Go ahead, do noting as see where it gets you. (Doug)<<
The old error of mixing ‘faith and works’. The very best of human faith/works falls woefully short of God's perfect standard. You won't make it. The “faith” James speaks of is faith that a person claims to have. “Though a man says he has faith” (Jas.2:14). Many claim to be Christians but have no evidence. Their ‘faith’ is fake. James is a book written not just to believers but also those who profess to believe. "Brethren" after the flesh [Cp. Rom.9:3-4]. They needed to be saved. Just as many today claim to believe [but aren't genuine]. They observe ritual, 'commands, conditions, works, endurance', customs, yet need to be born again. James is saying, “I will show thee my faith by my works” [2:18] so he doesn't conflict with Paul (if you were correct).
So salvation is not by works (Rom.3:20 27-28 4:2 11:6 2 Tim.1:9 Titus 3:3-5). Christians are saved "not by works" (Eph.2:8-9) but "for good works" (Eph.2:10).
>>Salvation is free. I hold to that point. However, you do need to be able to receive that free gift and you do need to be able to retain that gift in working order, lest you fall.<<
If Mormon salvation was free why the 'conditions', 'processes', 'commands' and 'enduring to the end'? A glaring contradiction! It's Mormons who worry lest they 'fall'. The Mormon god (who was once a man) doesn't know the end from the beginning and doesn't know who will and won't be saved. He is weak and your sin is stronger than he.
I admit that I can't keep myself saved any more than I could save myself in the first place. I'm "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" (1 Pe.1:4-5). My God "is able to keep (me) from falling, and to present (me) faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24).
Salvation is certain, “And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ” (Eph.2.6) It's secure and based on GOD’S power and what He's done. But uncertain for you because it's based on Mormonism and works. God needs Doug, so Doug can save Doug from Doug's sin.
No wonder you are so sad - just as the elder son was unhappy with the prodigal son. Although he kept all 'thy commandments' he was never given the gift that could cheer his heart [Lk.15:29].
>>The odd thing here is that you think that God will distribute out his free gifts to everyone, but that is not true. So, the issue is on what basis does he offer it and how is it received? You seem to think the proper response to grace offered is to do NOTHING. I feel sad for you, as you could be feeling the Spirit of God in a much greater way if you would just accept doing the Lords commandments rather than your cheap lazy version of what you call salvation. Really, no thank you. (Doug)<<
The "proper response to grace offered is to" accept it. It's a free gift offered for everyone. So get on your knees, call on God, everyone needs the Saviour. You can't save yourself. Thank Him for dying for you. Ask Him to wash you clean and make you into a new man. This is the most important issue you have ever faced. God will give you a new life which there is nothing lazy about. Make the decision today. Your response –
>>Again, either you love Jesus and keep his commandments or you do not love the Lord. Since you are advocating breaking every commandement (by doing NOTHING but trust), you frankly sound like the perfect servant of satan to me. Again NO THANKS !!! (Doug)<<
But you can't please God if unregenerate "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom.8:8). You need to start at the beginning. Paul says the free gift of God's grace was given "not because Abraham obeyed God's law" [works mixed with faith], but because he "trusted God [faith alone] to keep his promises" [Rom.4:13 LB]. So work all you will, you won't be given any reward from God. It's impossible for spiritually dead to obtain salvation by their own efforts, (which are dead works). It is only by "the gift of God" as Jesus declared in Jn 4.10 (and see Rom.6:23).
Since I was saved and passed "out of death into life" [Jn.5:24] I work not in order to get saved, but because I am saved. Only the saved can work [Eph.2:10; Titus 3:3]. For all others, "this is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom [God] hath sent" [Jn.6:29].
>>You see how badly you contradict yourself? You tell me NOT do do any works then you tell me I must DO all these things above. Im laughing hysterically now, I am so sorry. (Doug)<<
Repentance, prayer, faith, trusting, and believing what God has done, are not works. If you were born again, you wouldn't regard this fact as hysterical. Or be offended by me. Yes I realise preaching seems funny to you. "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor.1:18). I asked Sneeb if he's born again, you replied,
>>I already am. LDS is a christian faith, and fortunately YOU dont get to decide who is and who is not. (doug)<<
Not according to your words, deeds and what you believe. The bible tells us about those born again, and you don't fit the picture. We would have much in common and my bible wouldn't be so offensive to you. Jesus said "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" (Jn.13:35). 'By their fruits shall ye know them'. You made no mistake about that. Everyone knows Mormons are hostile towards Christians because those, "born after the flesh persecutes him that was born after the Spirit, so it is now" (Gal.4:29).
I asked Sneeb", who is your faith in, Joseph Smith or Jesus Christ? You replied,
>>Ah, one final does of crap from you. I already told you that my faith is centered in God and that I recognize J.S. as an apostle and proophet of God, so that I do not trust my soul to J.S. in any way shape or form. Really, must you resort to you iditoic statements to try and save me? Pathetic on your part. (doug)<<
Calm down, don't get angry. Something I said? Hit the nail on the head?
There are no apostles or prophets today, nor since New Testament times. Biblically, no one today has the credentials or qualifications necessary. They had to have seen the resurrected Lord, and been around since John the Baptist, (Ac.1:22). And be specially called by Christ personally (Lk.6:13) also to perform miracles to prove their office (2 Cor.12:12).
The gift of apostleship ceased with the last apostle. Once the foundation of the church was laid no other foundation is needed - “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Eph.2:20) We don’t need modern apostles and prophets because God's Word is final and complete. ANY modern day prophet must be 100% true, 100% reliable, and 100% inerrant as Scripture itself or we make God a liar. The bible only refers to false apostles/prophets in these days. Virtually every cult and false teaching ever spawned started with leader(s) claiming to be prophets and with divine revelation.
Your email from here gets hotter and hotter. You have the last word, I won't trouble you further (Abbreviated to get the idea) -
>>If we had relied on you… we would all end up in hell. I am grateful to J.S. he was given the responsibility to correct misguided persons like you…. Yes, I am able to recognize, something you evidnelty not…. But, we help you…. You can thank me…. You have quoted nothing… you must be dense….. I am just about disgusted with your low intellect…. your inabiility to remember….. i must conclude that me writting to you is a total waste of my valuable time…..if that is what you beleive, you are welomce to that rubbish. How utterly stupid….. Im laughing hysterically… I am not sure….What is indefensible and STUPID is for you….let us apply that standard to YOU… you are a anti jewish bigot…. WHy that is so hard for you to understand… not hard for me… You will answer for it. (Doug)<<<
Thanks Doug. Hope you don't explode while reading or do yourself an inquiry.
Reply? Yes he did explode unfortunately. He can have the last word:- Abbreviated -