Want Some Answers ???
I was reading Bill's website www.doveministries.com and noticed an article "Gifts of the Holy Spirit". Bill says a prophet receives revelation from God through “a thought, impression, or vision, or the audible voice of God”. But, how do we know this voice is from God? Other than the prophet insisting the voice says "I am God".
There's a Pentecostal group [likely linked to the local Mormon temple] who meet next to my house. I suspect a women prophet runs the group. They spend much of their time loudly shouting in their worship. One night they had a laughing revival. I'm concerned, for every cult ever born was set-up by those claiming to be prophets. They often speak in tongues and no doubt will claim all the miracle gifts. And with experiences and stories all proving their doctrine is from God so it will be hard to convince them otherwise.
It seems the supernatural gifts of the early church were real enough, but today with all the confusion, division and disagreement it really questions why these gifts would be given. Any reflections?
----- Original Message -----From: Dove MinistriesCc: firstname.lastname@example.org
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: just a query
Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been on leave.
In response to your email, Bill points out that there is a difference between the ministry of a prophet (1 Corinthians 12:28) and the gift of prophecy (1 Corinthians 12:9). One is an office, the other is a gift.
In 1 Corinthians 14:3, the Apostle Paul says that when the gift of prophecy is exercised it should be for edification, exhortation and comfort. In 1 Corinthians 14:31 he says that all can prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
If we look at Scripture overall we find that prophets such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, were warning Israel of pending destruction because of their disobedience. In Acts 21:10-11 the prophet Agabus warned Paul of pending imprisonment. It is clear from these examples that this is quite a different office from the gift of prophecy referred to above..
Over the years of his ministry, Bill has found that when groups of spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ who are baptised in the Holy Spirit come together, wait upon the Lord and begin to exercise the gifts referred to in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, and pray together the Holy Spirit begins to move in their midst .
The Holy Spirit gives to various individuals by thought impression vision or audible voice words from God to edify , exhort and comfort. As the other members of the group listen to each of these words they can discern by the Holy Spirit within them whether this is from the Lord will just the person's mind.
In regard to the Mormons, they are practising heresy. This can easily be established if you read their material and books that have been written about them. Google has also plenty of information about their heretic beliefs.
Name with held for privacy reasons, [personal assistant to Bill Subritzky]
Thanks for the reply. Yes it's been a while. I was the one concerned about a Pentecostal group (or cult) who ‘worship’ in a tin-shed next door. This ‘spirit filled’ group are basically shouting to neighbours they have the spirit gifts and ‘God is doing a new work’. They could be Mormon, Catholic or who knows.
They would claim prophets, tongues, laughing, ‘voices’, etc., and would ‘discern’ their prophets to be of God. Yet they could be the likes of Joe Smith, Jim Jones or anyone. False doctrine always start with those pretending to be prophets.
Bill responds by correcting me and endorsing them. His point of a difference between a prophetic ‘office’ and prophetic ‘gift’ seems irrelevant. And prophecy as ‘comfort, exhortation' also irrelevant. Its alarming to think if they are ‘spirit baptised’ Bill says they must be ok. Anybody can put on a performance & claim miracles.
I'm interested to know what Bill thinks however. It seems the only prophets the bible speaks of in the last days are false prophets (1 Jn.4:1 2 Pe.2:1 1 Cor.14:29 Mt.24:24 Rev.22:18). What verses refer to true prophets today? Otherwise there’s no way to test them, once we accept prophets as given today, because of their supernatural nature.
But why have prophets today if the bible is enough and the final ultimate authority (1 Tim.3:16-17)? God spoke ‘in various ways in times past’ but in these days it’s through His Word (Heb.1:1-2). The group next door have accepted another authority. The essence of prophets is new revelation – in effect they add to scripture, prophets profess to speak as God.
I’m sure the bible has a lower status to them. They will emphasize their experiences and 'prophets' next to scripture and belittle God’s Word. And by accepting the idea of 'modern day prophets' they have become deceived.
Normal Christians have God’s Spirit to provide guidance via God’s Word without prophet or priest. Sorry but I think Bill opens to door to heresy. One can claim a voice from God, the group claim the Holy Spirit & claim God speaks, & yet all mistaken according to the bible.
Anyway, lately the group next door are down in numbers and don't shout as long & loud, is that good or bad?
From: Dove Ministries
To: 'Dr Mark Purchase'
Cc: email@example.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: just a query
Bill points out that in no way has he endorsed what these people are doing. He did not say that because they were "spirit baptised" that they must be ok.
The following scriptures clearly demonstrate that God has provided for true prophets to be in His church.
And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words.
And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
1 Corinthians 12:28-29
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone
which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.
Personal assistant to Bill Subritzky.
Hi, You wrote,
>>Bill points out that in no way has he endorsed what these people are doing. He did not say that because they were "spirit baptised" that they must be ok.<<
No of course not. He provided their defence. I said it would be “alarming to think if they are ‘spirit baptised’ Bill says they must be ok”, because “anybody can put on a performance & claim miracles”. Parts of your email could be read two ways, and applied perfectly in their support.
Thanks for the verses regarding apostles and prophets in the early church (before the completion of the NT).
Paul likened the church to a building built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ the corner stone (Eph.2:19-20 1 Cor.3:10).
Their revelation has been laid as they authoritatively spoke the Word of God to the church. No other foundation can any man lay (1 Cor.3:11). It’s laid only once and there are none today in the primary sense of the words, as no one can qualify.
Their words were binding on the church for all time and had an authority none else could have. The whole concept of a biblical prophet is of one having been delegated divine authority as God’s representative. When they speak, they speak with the same authority as if the Lord were speaking. Whether defining the truth or doctrine. From them we lean God’s intentions.
So you can see. If we teach apostles and prophets are given today we can’t really question the weird group next door because of the God-given authority & supernatural calling of prophets.
By taking Bill's approach that apostles and prophets are today, it’s hard to help those 'practising heresy'. Because I would also believe a prophet receives divine revelation via “a thought, impression, or vision, or the audible voice of God”.
But if I take the other approach, the deception and authority of their prophet is easily undercut by God's Word.