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Hello Irene

>>Dear Mark I have heard and read opposition to the Pentecostal Movement. I have never heard of or read such rubbish as you write. Sorry, but it is rubbish.<<

Of course what I write is rubbish to you. Contrary to practically everything you write. The claim to speak 100 different languages and the other miracles is ‘rubbish’ to me. Nobody brags like Pentecostals - hundreds of healings – miracles - 100 tongues - thousands of churches - raising the dead – the lame dancing, cancers gone - half a million tongue speakers etc. Such boasting is not biblical (2 Cor.12:1-10).

We differ so strongly because Pentecostalism has another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel. But I have only said what others have written already (nothing made up).


>>Thousands of Pent. missionaries for over 100 years have gone out to foreign lands and preached the GOSPEL and THE WORD OF GOD. I have been in many Bible Schools, six heathen lands and gone through perhaps thousands of churches. You do not know what you are talking about. The message is Jesus Christ, the Word of God and the gospel. The Pentecostal truths are added the same as is water baptism and communion.<<

You haven’t read much ‘opposition’, if not knowing what I'm ‘talking about’. Many Pentes today know tongues are gibberish, but some (like you) won’t admit it. In the early 1900’s some believed it was a real language. They were wrong, but prepared to use it as missionaries. (CW Shumway 'A Study of the Gift of Tongues' A.B Thesis, Univ. of Southern Cali. 1914 pg.43-44 & N Mikhaiel, 'The Toronto Blessing and Slaying in the Spirit' publ. by Mikhaiel 1996 pg.241-242. "Azusa Street" F Bartleman Logos Int. NJ 1980 p.66).

So they put you to shame. You say “
I have done missionary work for 30 years. I never thought of using the Gift of Tongues for that.” Pentecostals in 1900 might be excused, but you? The weakest part of your doctrine is the claim gibberish is a language. Either you are fooling yourself or deluded.

Pentecostal history is full of contradictions. Eg. In 1976 Pentecostal’s held a world conference in Jerusalem to celebrate “the ongoing miracle of Pentecost”. Significantly delegates had to have interpreters and headphones in order to hear and understand in their own languages.


>>As for sexual behaviour in Pent. churches, I havbe been in them for 76 years. Such things have never taken place under the outpouring of the Spirit according to Acts 2:4. I have seen perhaps half a million or more people speaking in tongues. Come on, brother, where do you get such slanderish, lying, devilish accusations from?<<

Many books cover this and you haven’t read any. Dr David Lewis (a Pentecostal) describes tongue speaking in one Pentecostal service – “Two young women….had patterns of breathing, vocalisation and flushed expressions strongly reminiscent of sexual orgasm…their central nervous systems were stimulatedThese few cases reminiscent of sexual experience among women may be attributed to the fact that both changes in breathing and hot areas on the body are significantly linked with younger age groups and with womenit should be born in mind similar physiological changes such as increased respiration and heart beat of flushed expressions can also be produced by running or strenuous work” (Healing, fiction, Fantasy of Fact? (D.Lewis. Hodder & Stoughton Lon. 1989. pg357).

While he uses the word ‘reminiscent’ he claims that these apparently sexual expressions can also be produced by running. But those girls were not running of doing strenuous work, they were ‘being ministered to’ in a religious meeting. Usually people do not hear or see what they do not suspect. Nobody expects to see a girl experiencing orgasm in a religious meeting. For Dr Lewis and his wife to notice those girls, it must have been obvious.

Other Pentecostal writers have similar examples with similar words. But note this - “Women in their frantic agitations sometimes unconsciously tore open their bosoms and assumed indelicate attitudes”. “Then as now, [1926] Camp Meetings were followed by a great increase in the numbers of illegitimate births”. “There was much kissing between the sexes” (The Frontier Camp Meeting. C.A.Johnson. Dallas 1955 pg.57, 111, 281)

Charles R. Smith, “The doctrines of free love and ‘spiritual marriages have too often appeared in association with tongues…. one of the serious problems of the Pentecostal movement has been the fact that many of it’s leaders have fallen into immorality. One well-known Pentecostal preachers, a woman widowed for three years, professed to be ‘with child of the Holy Ghost’. Parham, ‘father of the modern Pentecostal movement’, was arrested for the grossest of immoralities” (Tongues in Biblical Perspective. Winona Lake 1972 pg.23).

More parallels with Corinth than you admit. Some of the most disgraceful examples of immorality and corruption have surfaced at the highest levels of Pentecostal leadership. These scandals deny the ‘signs and wonders’ are verification of true spirituality. Yet some Pentecostals are defensive, “We do not dismiss Paul’s ministry in Corinth because the Spirit’s movement there was subsequently associated with gross sexual indecency” (When the Spirit Comes with Power. J.White. Hodder & Stoughton 1980 pg.38).

All the fervor, excitement and emotion – things Pentecostals tend to equate with spiritual intensity – have no power to restrain lust, pride or selfishness. Pentecostals blame demonic power rather than re-examine their theology of sanctification. It’s not people’s morality in question, but the spirit behind their behavior.


>>I do not base anything on experience. I base everything on the Word of God. Yes, if the word of God burning in one's heart, if the truths of the gospel living within, if the memory of all the O.T. incidents, its prophets, its kings, the creation story, the fall, if the typology of the Tabernacle, Temple………if it makes one acknowledge that one "is seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus", if it dwells in the heart as does the book of Hebrews….YES THEN IT IS SUBJECTIVE..….. However, the source is not subjective and never can be. You there are relying on "subjectivity" to even say such a thing. The end result of salvation is a subjective experience. What of the Song of Solomon, Christ and His church? How subjective are His words to us and the Bride's reply of love to Him?<<

Sure, we are to ‘experience what the Word of God says’. But doctrine is NOT formulated or based on experience. Can you see the difference? If you believe something is true because you had an experience that is NOT the valid test of truth. All religions claim ‘experiences’ validate their belief. Experiences can go in any direction (lie, deceive, prove nothing). This is why an experience or miracle, no matter how great, cannot be appealed to as the sole judge of the source of that event. Even you admit some people’s tongue speaking is of the devil.

You constantly tout experiences to validate your doctrine and interpret how you understand a verse. Your arguments for healing/tongues come from experience stories. That will not do!


>>Incidentally, I on very, very seldom occasions, have had my speaking in tongues understood by the odd person. I have heard English spoken, Dutch, Chinese. To me that is nothing. I do not want such "gibberish" as you falsely call it to be a pointer as to the veracity of the Word of God.<<

More experiences to prove doctrine? ‘I could ask why you seem to be basing your judgment on observation and incorrect assumptions instead of on the Word of God?' Those who insist gibberish is a real language have NEVER proven it. You had the opportunity to make good your claim but you ‘would never dream’ of that.

Yes, my point, the veracity of God’s Word is not confirmed by Pentecostals claiming miracles. It’s message is confirmed ALREADY by miracles (Heb.2:2). Faith is required today, not miracles.


>>Re the Toronto Blessing, which WAS NOT a Pentecostal thing…..They were deluded and deceived by a lying spirit, as are you, my brother. True, I my self was disgusted to see it the first meeting I was in….It WAS NOT PENTECOSTAL. It was disgusting, unscriptural and un Pentecostal.<<

Those ‘slain’ also claim as tongue speakers - lives changed, God’s power, wonderful feelings, miracles, healings, etc. The slaying occurred in the first Pentecostal services (p.256 The Toronto Blessing and Slaying in the Spirit.’ N.Mikhaiel 3rd Ed. 1996) People traveled from around the world to Azusa St (in the 1900’s) and from there Pentecostal missionaries went forth (Demons & Tongues. A.White. NJ 1949 pg.71-77).

Tongues, healings and wonders are inseparably associated with the slaying. The pattern has been observed since the beginning and keeps recurring. It’s too definite and sharp to brush aside. Even though the sexual experiences are rare even they recur. All is triggered by the same loss of control that marks the gamut of manifestations. The manifestations become holy to the mind.

The correlations between the slaying and tongues are obvious. Both recipients follow the same doctrine (healings, miracles, prophecy, signs, tongues etc). Both display similar emotions, both claim it’s the work of the Holy Spirit. Both claim spiritual enlightenment, both claim scriptural support. The Toronto Blessing has originated from and embraced by Pentecostals. Some (like you) condemn it, but Hagin, Hinn, MacNutt, Copeland, Wimber, Howard-Brown, many others embrace it. They would criticize you with the same words you criticize them, “
never had the fullness of it….just scratched the surface.”

>>As for saying what you did about the mind. Really, you are accusing the Apostle Paul of the same thing. We do just what he did. How can you accuse him? How dare you accuse the work of the Holy Spirit in us?

What I said was, ‘when Paul prayed in the Spirit, he didn’t surrender his mind and abandoned control of himself for the sake of the euphoria of a mystical experience’.

Paul says if tongues are outside God’s will, forget it. If the “mind is unfruitful” forget it (1 Cor.14:14). He was skilled in Hebrew, Syriac, and Greek and likely understood some languages by miraculous gift. He used these as a witness for the Lord, unlike you, inside a church building with words no one understands.

I wouldn’t ‘
accuse’ the Holy Spirit of the Pentecostal movement. To say tongues is the work of the Holy Spirit blasphemes the Holy Spirit. It’s more likely an evil spirit (1 Jn.4:1, 1 Tim.4:1).

>>I have spoken in tongues for years. I am never out of my mind. I am totally conscious. I am totally aware. I am in control all the time. I am aware of Jesus Christ and of heavenly things. Have you never been aware of our blessed Saviour and of His Word working in your heart? Then brother, you have greaqt need.<<

When I’m aware ‘of heavenly things’ my tongue doesn’t go crazy. This awareness is meaningful and can edify others. Why would the Spirit hide this in an unknown language, then, get someone else who thinks they understand to interpret? How foolish. Your glossolalia sounds purely psychological, from you and no one else.

You claim full control now, but when asked to type tongues you couldn’t because it “
bypasses the mind”. Indeed how can you be in full control when the tongue isn't? Sentences are not motivated with purpose. When people say pseudo-words and meaningless sentences they temporarily discard the normal function of the mind in a state of mental abandonment. With glossolalia conscious control is not exercised in the usual way. So you might think you are in control but it doesn’t appear so to others.

>>As for saying one is in an hypnotic state to speak in tongues is absolute rubbish. I have seen so many demon possessed persons (have you?) not to even see the difference.<<

Pentecostal's have this serious problem of not been able to 'see the difference'. It's a warning to leave the whole movement alone. As this fellow discovered -

I didn’t want to be left out of the blessing that he was receiving. I let my mind become quite blank and began yielding to the external power outside myself that seemed to be pleading for full control of me. At once a feeling of paralysis began to numb my feet. It soon affected my legs….this is thing is coming upon me, not from heaven, but from beneath… I cried out, ‘May the blood of Christ protect me’ At once it vanished and I was normal again…you know….that wasn’t of God. It was of the devil……. my friend then described the spiritual darkness into which he was plunged, following that ecstatic experience” (R. Frame ‘Something Unusual’. His XXXIV Dec. 1963 pg.27). Others also believe the origins of modern tongues are Satanic (H.A Hort ‘Speaking in Tongues’. L.M Haldeman ‘Holy Ghost Baptism and Speaking with Tongues’).

As for a hypnotic state. To those learning tongues the pastor says, ‘empty your mind’, relax the tongue…Come Holy Spirit…God is going to bless….the power will come…open your heart’ (as a hypnotist).

Any hypnotist can make any of his subjects speak gibberish. Pentecostalism is a ‘Hypnotic-crisis’ induced by auto-suggestion, repetition and self-hypnosis. In this state the subject ‘believes’ whatever he is told. They go into a trance-like state of mind in an emotional atmosphere of rhythm, chanting and usually with eyes closed. Tongues speakers, hypnotized and the ‘spirit slain’ all describe a force or electrical current going through them. “Glossolalia and hypnotism are induced in a similar manner” (E. Hilgard ‘Hypnotic Susceptibility’).


>>I have to say this. You really do not know a thing about the whole subject. Your use of the scriptures is totally wrong. It appears to me you twist same. I hope you do not twist same about Christ, our redemption, our salvation, our eternal life, our future in heaven, etc.<<

If I use Scripture ‘wrong’ there was an opportunity to correct it, but you haven’t. My concern is that your doctrine corrupts the simplicity in ‘Christ, redemption, salvation’ and the Bible. And it adds ‘signs’ for amusement. Miracles in the Bible are full of instruction, written for our learning, worthy of public and private use and for worship. But those of miracle mongers today are full of nonsense and deception. You are worried about me twisting Scripture, yet Pentecostalism is a common denominator among Liberals, Orthodox, Unitarian and Catholics.

>>If you accuse me and Pentecostals of the things you do, you must believe that we are not in Christ? I have news for you. The Bible says differently. I have Christ in me and I am in Christ. I am washed in the blood. I have the hope of eternal life, where"Christ will be all in all". Strongly said, From Irene<<

Whether ‘in Christ’ or not, Pentecostalism turns people inward, toward mysticism and subjectivity, and away from the Word of God. The sad legacy of this doctrine is chaos and confusion. It ‘accuses’ others of been ‘spiritual dead’ when we have everything needed to live a godly life (2 Pe.1:3) and lack nothing in Christ (Col.2:9-10). What’s more, God’s Word is enough, and the Holy Spirit is not given in half measure (Ac.15:8-9).

Regards,
Mark

"
If all the tongues of men and angels were given me, I could not tell you how great are the promises of God... they surpass the growing praises of all the enthusiasts that have ever spoken" p.63 According to Promise. Spurgeon.)


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