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Hi Wally

>> I enjoyed reading your anti-thesis and noted your extensive use of logic and the fact that you believe that many people who call themselves Christians are Christians indeed. You will note that in the book of Revelation God says only those who overcome are overcomers and shall be clothed in white garments, and He will not blot out their name from the Book of Life; but He will confess their name before His Father and before His angels.<<

And who are the “overcomers”? John says, “everyone born of God overcomes the world.” [See 1 Jn.2:13-14]. They would be the 'born again' mentioned in John 3:3ff. One does not overcome Satan with human strength and earn salvation. They overcome by ‘the blood of the Lamb’, not by a life long effort of works.

>>It's also to be noted that Jude tells us that many Christians will be destroyed for not continuing in the faith and being believers: JUDE 1:5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.<<

Those that were destroyed were not Christians. These were unbelievers from the start, they did nothing but complain, and refused to enter the land. They rebelled against God's word to His servant Moses. Read what Jude says about such (Jude 1:10-13).

>>It's interesting how religious ones pick and choose the passages in the word of God they want and ignore the stuff they don't like? Yet God's word remains unchanging:<<

Yes this is why it's important to "rightly divide the word" (2 Tim.2:15). So the writer of Hebrews says, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb.10:39). And while God's Word is unchanging, His dealings with men have changed. Eg He doesn't give Christians shoes that don't wear-out as He did to the children of Israel in the wilderness. Also, He once told His disciples not to go to the Gentiles and after the resurrection He commanded they go to all nations etc.

>>He still delivers and rescues, and He works signs and wonders in heaven and on earth. Signs and wonders which bless some and destroy others. There are no sickness, famine, pestilence, poverty, suffering and lack in heaven and should not be on earth. The LORD who IS A GREAT MAN OF WAR AND UNCHANGING will bring His trusting ones into abundance of prosperity and give them every victory. His word is unchanging: "When you go out to battle against your enemies, and see horses and chariots and people more numerous than you, do not be afraid of them; for the LORD your God is with you, who brought you up from the land of Egypt. "So it shall be, when you are on the verge of battle, that the priest shall approach and speak to the people. "And he shall say to them, 'Hear, O Israel: Today you are on the verge of battle with your enemies. Do not let your heart faint, do not be afraid, and do not tremble or be terrified because of them; 'for the LORD your God is He who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you' (to give you victory, KJV). Deuteronomy 20:1-4<<

Yet nevertheless there is "sickness, famine, pestilence, poverty, suffering and lack" on earth. And just because one is a Christian that doesn't mean they won't be poor, get sick, or have problems. God's people have victory over sin and this world but that doesn't mean they don't get sick or die. The promises given to Israel relate to Israel's earthly inheritance, but the church is God's heavenly people. They have a spiritual, not physical warfare. But make no mistake, Christians do not always win over their enemies at times they go through the hardship and God proves faithful in it.

This is scripturally true. As you said, we don't just "
pick and choose the passages in the word of God" we "want and ignore the stuff" we don't like.

Regards


Reply -


Hi Wally


>>The promises given to Israel relate to Israel's earthly inheritance," IS BASED ON A FOOLISH FAULTY LOGIC BECAUSE GOD'S WORD STATES: 1 CORINTHIANS 3:21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 3:22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come-all are yours. And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's. Every promise and every scripture and everything in the bible is mine including the greatest gifts of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as well as myriad of angels. Heaven is all mine just for the asking and by faith we can bring it all down on earth even the silver and gold that is in heaven. Yes God can and does open "windows in heaven" and bless people with material things just like He did for Elisha in 2 Kings 7!<<

It's not based on "faulty logic", but common sense. Many things said to the Jewish people in the OT were not for Christians. And the - "All things are yours" does not refute this fact. 1 Cor.3:21-23 refers to the believers position in Christ and in God. NOT to a position in relation to earthly riches, goods & health. So while God's Word is unchanging, His dealings with men have changed. Eg He doesn't give Christians shoes that don't wear-out as He did to the children of Israel in the wilderness. Also, He once told His disciples not to go to the Gentiles and after the resurrection He commanded they go to all nations etc.

All scripture does not apply to born again believers. Paul writes, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim.2:15). The word of truth then has right divisions and a bible student cannot ignore them or their study will be profitless and confusing. Note – "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor.10:32). Half the bible is written to the Jew, they have a very distinct place in God's plan. It’s a mistake going into the OT and take verses out of context applying to them to the church.

Many of the greatest men of God have been poor in this world's riches. What is the warning of Paul about your kind of thinking? "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." (1 Tim.6:5).


>>IT'S YOUR CHOICE TO SEPERATE THE TEMPORAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL NOT MINE NOR GOD'S. GOD'S WORD IS UNCHANGING: "Hear, O My people, and I will admonish you! O Israel, if you will listen to Me! There shall be no foreign god among you; Nor shall you worship any foreign god. I am the LORD your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt; Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it. "But My people would not heed My voice, And Israel would have none of Me. So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels. "Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways! I would soon subdue their enemies, And turn My hand against their adversaries. The haters of the LORD would pretend submission to Him, But their fate would endure forever. He would have fed them also with the finest of wheat; And with honey from the rock I would have satisfied you." Psalm 81:8-16 YES God has promised to cut off all the horns of the wicked and to exalt the horns of the righteous AS WELL AS SUBDUE THEIR PHYSICAL ENEMIES AND TO FEED THEM WITH THE FINEST OF WHEAT. The righteous are those who heed His voice and walk in His ways. And the unrighteous or wicked don’t do such things they just pretend they do. <<

I stand by what I wrote. For Christians there is "sickness, famine, pestilence, poverty, suffering and lack" on earth. And just because one is a Christian that doesn't mean they won't be poor, get sick, or have problems.

God's people have victory over sin and this world but that doesn't mean they don't get sick or die (Regardless what verse you quote). You took verses out of context ie the promises given to Israel which related to Israel's earthly inheritance. The church is God's heavenly people with a heavenly calling. But make no mistake, Christians do not always win over their enemies, at times they go through hardship, tests, trials and death.

Regards


Reply


>>Thank God that all this is only your opinion, not Gods! I don't use the logic or experience of other Christians to build my faith on but the word of God and the Holy Spirit<<

It may be my opinion but its based on "rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim.2:15). I have always taught the literal method of interpretation, often called the 'historical-grammatical' because it gives words their normal meaning according to accepted grammatical rules and historical usage. This tends to simplicity and clarity. It means we read the bible as any other book. This method does not rule out the use of type, allegory and symbol, but it does not make these the basis for interpretation.

So when we read an OT passage we don't take it out of context, & apply it to those it wasn't written to. Likewise, when reading about Israel's judgment in the OT, we don't twist & apply it to the church.

Regards, Mark.



Those interested: Scripture refutes the Prosperity Doctrine of plain-sailing, increasing wealth, prosperity, no sickness, no problems -

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest on me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong". (2 Cor.12:9-10)

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22)

"In the world ye shall have tribulation...." (Jn.16:33). "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience; And patience, experience and experience, hope" (Rom.5:3-4).

"…corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, supposing that godliness is a way of gain. But godliness with contentment is great gain: for we brought nothing into the world, for neither can we carry anything out; but having food and covering we shall be therewith content. But they that are minded to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and hurtful lusts, such as drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows." (1 Tim.6:5-10)



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