Want Some Answers ???Pentecostalism
>>…Dear Dr Mark Purchase, Thank you for taking the time and effort to express your view about healing. As you well know this can turn into a long and big debate? However I agree with you that it's only your view on the matter and not the view of scripture for there isn't a verse in the bible that says that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased or will cease for the church of Jesus Christ. On the contrary it states: 1COR 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 14:1-5<<
Indeed and we would expect to find such verses in a book written in the early period of church formation. Before they had the bible we have, when the sign gifts were still given by God.
But the Bible does say the 'sign' gifts given the early church ceased (Mk.16:20 Heb.2:3-4 note the pasted tense). The gift of tongues, healing, miracles and prophecy "vanished away" when the purpose for which they were given ended [1 Cor.13:8f]. Not the first time God gave miraculous endowments for a limited period [ie children of Israel in the Wilderness].
Paul said they "will pass away" [1 Cor. an early epistle] but when he writes his later epistles, Ephesians and Romans and discusses gifts of the Spirit at length, he makes no mention of the miraculous gifts. In fact, the writer of Hebrews [a later book] looks on miracles as past [Heb.2:3-4]. By this time, the apostolic message & authority needed no further confirmation. Before the 1st century ended, the entire NT had been written and was circulating in churches. The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with the death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot [cf 2 Cor.12:12].
So tongues is only mentioned in the earliest NT books. Paul wrote 12 epistles after 1st Corinthians and never mentioned tongues again. Peter, James, Jude and John never mention it, and it's significant that it's nowhere alluded to, hinted at or even found in the Apostolic fathers [Chrysostom stated categorically that it had ceased by his time]. The only tongue speakers during the first 500 years of the church were branded as heretics.
The bible has replaced the temporary sign gifts that were "in part". Now we are asked to walk by faith and believe the bible rather than walk by sight. Regards.
>>HOGWASH! KNOWLEDGE HAS NOT VANISHED? You have to stretch things to use 1 Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. DON'T TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT. THE PERFECT HERE REFERS TO JESUS CHRIST NOT THE BIBLE AND HE HAS NOT RETURNED FOR HIS BRIDE, THE CHURCH TO WHOM HE APPOINTED AND GAVE APOSTLES, PROPHETS GIFTS OF HEALING MIRACLES....1 Cor 12:28<<
I didn't say "knowledge" has "vanished". Paul was speaking about a gift of knowledge (1 Cor.13:2). Today, one must study to get knowledge. God gave the early church revelatory gifts of illumination they lacked scripture we have. The gifts were in part. According to your view "knowledge" will vanish at Christ's return. I call that "HOGWASH". The "knowledge" we have now we taken into eternity. It does not cease at any time.
So in "CONTEXT THE PERFECT HERE REFERS TO" scripture. Paul's subject ('in context') is illumination. The part illumination gives away to "that which is perfect." The gifts provided the early Church that which was later provided by the NT. When Paul wrote 1st Corinthians the only part of the NT in existence was 1st & 2nd Thess. The early Church was disadvantaged, so God gave miraculous gifts to enable the assimilation of NT truth [so readily available to us]. They were "in part" compared with the "perfection" of completed Scripture. So when the perfect came, the part was done away.
"That which is perfect" doesn't refer "to Jesus Christ", its in the neuter gender in the Greek. Note, Gen 6:9 Dent. 32:4 Ps.19:7 Mat.5:48. Rom.12:2 in none of these does "perfect" refer to the future eternal state, but life on earth. Clearly also the connotation in 1 Cor.13.10. The Gifts exercised at Corinth were "in part" and for use in the early days of the Church on earth. It was to this scene "that which is perfect" was to come. The Gifts would be "done away" when the perfect "is come."
So the first Christians had a disadvantage without the NT and they lived in a transition period (Judaism to Christianity). God gave Apostles, Prophets, gifts of revelation and sign miracles for a special purpose. Eg. The sign gifts had a purpose, they confirmed apostolic teaching and revelation (note the words “signs” and “confirmed” Mk.16:17 Heb.2:2-3). When the church foundation was finished there was no need for the signs (1 Cor.13:8-10 Eph.2:20 3:5). But today, tongues has no purpose, but is simply gibberish.
Apostles/prophets have ceased because no one today meets the biblical criteria. They were temporary no one today has the credentials or qualifications necessary (Ac.1:22 2 Cor.12:12 Lk.6:13). The solemn warning of Rev.22:18 shows God has revealed in Scripture all needed for in this dispensation. Every generation of Christians since apostolic time has been given Evangelists, Pastors and teachers. These are permanent gifts, but they are not miraculous, one must study and exercise their gift.
>>The scriptures you quoted out of context say that knowledge have vanished and tongues have ceased. You cannot have it both ways? Anyway you are fighting a war that you have lost since you don't have truth on your sides just empty twisted warped words of what you call scriptures when it's all just your opinions and not based on fact or truth that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever who baptizes with the holy spirit and fire and does miracles amongst the people: Jn 1:33 Acts 10:38<<
If I quote 'out of context' why didn't you show me why? The Bible indicates the sign gifts will cease when the perfect (the bible) comes. You say nothing to explain why this is wrong. The gift of tongues, healing, special knowledge, miracles and prophecy "vanished away" when the purpose for which they were given ended [1 Cor.13:8f]. Clearly today all we have is fake healings, gibberish, failed prophecies, con-men, confusion.
While Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, His dealings with men have changed. Every generation of Christians since apostolic time has been given Evangelists, Pastors and teachers. These are the permanent gifts, but they are not miraculous, one must study and exercise their gift. This is not 'empty twisted warped words' (like gibberish) this is in fact the truth.
When a person is born again they are born of the Spirit and placed into the family of God. That's when the Holy Spirit baptism occurs. All believers have the spirit baptism (1 Cor.12:13). But the Pentecostal idea of 'spirit baptism' is a far cry from what the bible says.
Pentecostalism does huge damage to Christianity - people rolling on the floor, running around out of control, animal noises, ecstatic tongues, ‘demons’ screaming, endless laughter, snake handling, vomiting and nudity in healing meetings, going to the toilet, smashing chairs, kicking holes in the wall, etc. And yes, they all insist it was the ‘Holy Spirit’ and it’s all in the name of Jesus. Who needs cults, Pentecostalism does more damage and Christians get the reputation. Not to mention the damage done by so-called 'faith healers' and their failed endeavours. Such an emphasis on bodily healing distorts the gospel. Regards, Mark.
>>What has your reasoning or logic do with anything that concerns the Christians faith? nothing! Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith and the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. What have they told you about tongues? Did you ask God if you should speak in tongues? No! You are full of faulty logic and reasoning and don't understand that a shoe without a tongue is very difficult to wear!<<
The bible should be the rule of faith. Not experience. That indicates tongues, and gifts of healing were for a limited time and ceased. Christian faith should be in God's word not in experiences of tongues and healings. The bible has replaced the temporary sign gifts that were "in part". Now we are asked to walk by faith and believe the bible rather than walk by sight.
The first Pentecostals (1900’s) believed 'tongues' was a real language given by God for witnessing to foreigners. At great cost some traveled the world only to discover nobody on earth understood their gibberish. Many were trapped in foreign lands with no money to return and some staved and died. I believe all tongues speaking today is gibberish. Perhaps you might quickly type out some of your tongue speaking and post it to me?
>>Now concerning the promises of God for Israel being also applicable to me, the law of gravity says nothing can fly. But another law the law of aerodynamics says things can fly. God blessed Abraham with silver and gold and perfect health as well as the children of Israel based on Deuteronomy 28:1-14 and Psalm 103:1-6? And God blesses Christians today with silver and gold and perfect health based on the finished works of the cross and a new superior covenant called the New Testament:<<
This is Hagin's belief as well. But the fact is God has not promised any Christian they will be rich in silver and gold and "perfect health". This is proven by the facts. And the facts speak louder than your words. To say the Christians who are sick or poor are more sinful than others is not biblical. Sickness and poverty is not always of the devil. Disasters can happen to anyone. Satan is the author of SIN but he is not the author of punishment which is sickness and death.
Note in Ex.4:11-12. It was the Lord who brought punishment, not the devil. To be consistent you must say thorns and thistles are from Satan and they shouldn't be found in the land of Christians. And Christian ladies should have no pain in childbirth. But you can't, because you are in clear disagreement with the Word of God.
There have been times (in scripture) when God's will was NOT to heal. The 'health and wealth gospel' is a presumptuous stumbling block to evangelism. Whereas suffering can provide a fresh insight into God's love, grace and plans.
>>Dear idiot, where does the bible indicate that tongues miracles healing and other gifts of the spirit have ceased? nowhere but you dumb logic<<
Wally, that's not very nice, calling me 'idiot' and 'dumb'. Sounds like you are angry. I don't want you upset, hence my last reply.
The whole Bible itself indicates the miracle gifts ceased. The Bible is a powerful reason why special revelation through the sign gifts are not required today. God communicates all we need through His Word, not by some Pentecostal speaking in gibberish or claiming gifts of prophecy or healing to prove God is speaking.
The fact is, so-called prophecy today is really empty nonsense from someone’s imagination and their ‘dreams and visions’ rather than God’s Word. The bible is enough for me. And it documents many examples of miracles for special periods that ceased shortly after bestowal. So my position is based on many reasons.
Your acceptance of modern day Prophets, questions Sola Scriptura and the uniqueness of God’s Word. The Bible’s claim for itself is challenged. Why should I seek revelation for my spiritual walk from the empty ‘prophecies’ of someone’s imagination, instead of God’s Word alone? Why seek for 'tongues' when that was NOT for Gentile believers, but a sign for Jewish unbelievers?