Want Some Answers ???Pentecostalism
>>You mentioned that Irene is trying to prove her case with experiential I.E. "miraculous" evidence. You also are trying that on! You point to pentecostal experiences as being a negative agency of proof. <<
I’m not trying to prove my 'case' with "experiential, ‘miraculous evidence". But scripture is the reason the miraculous gifts ceased. So what do you mean “negative agency of proof”? Irene's numerous stories of miracles proved nothing. Many claim God uses miracles to prove their doctrine. All the big time healers and miracle workers have their stories. Roman Catholics are notorious for stories, visions of Mary, healings, miracles, etc. Only a fool believes everything without questioning.
In the NT the miracle gifts were given to confirm the words/doctrine of Christ and the apostles (Mk.16:17 Heb.2:2-3 note the words “signs” and “confirmed”). So the 'sign' gifts had a reason and purpose. There’s no reason or purpose for the multitude of miracle stories today, but they are mostly lies and distortions . In the NT when the church foundation was finished there was no need for any more signs (1 Cor.13:8-10 Eph.2:20 3:5).
Besides, Irene selected from Acts and the epistles only parts that suite her selection of experiences and ignored others. The fact is, not all the experiences of the NT are those we should expect. And if some were for a limited season we shouldn’t expect them today.
>>My assertion from the position of logic; is that you cannot prove your doctrine as you have NO witnesses who are still alive or who have any credibility post Acts ch 2. to about 100 AD (when the church doctrinal wheels began to fall off!) exept for 1Cor 13 which is the ONLY pivotal scripture to the whole argument. Vis a Vis:<<
My doctrine (held by the church traditionally) is proven from the Living Word of God, from history and the early church fathers. Tongues were “for a sign not to them that believe, but to the unbelieving” (1 Cor.14:22) Here Paul quotes Isa.28:11. Men of “another tongue will speak to His people” (Isa.28:11) “yet for all that they will not hear me, saith the Lord” (1 Cor). Tongues were for a sign to Israel. They had a meaning for the Jewish nation they didn’t have for others, a nation often in captivity. It was the “unbelieving” Jewish nation that tongues was given. And as the church became more Gentile, tongues ceased to have meaning or necessity, so they vanished.
>>You cannot logically read and interpret that the way "you" choose and remain correct! (unfortunately I can only suspect the way you choose, but I bet I'm right! no prizes for guessing.) Please read it again and interpret the whole discourse with applied logic. I personally doubt that you will. It is possible to appeal with logic, but poor old logic remains a pale persuader in the face of bigotry.<<
If I fail to 'read' or understand, mention your point again. You're welcome to explain where I might be 'logically' wrong. But your charge of 'bigotry' is unfounded. Only bigots suggest others fail to correctly understand, even before they speak. It’s easy to accuse others, but are you a champion of comprehension?
>>You are obviously an intellectual, quick witted and endowed with a "sword" of well practiced fencing. Perhaps you should try out in the field of philosophy where talents such as that, and the ability to fantazise without logic are a pre requisite. I am truly sincere when I suggest that!<<
I’m not surprised you 'sincerely' recommend people study ‘philosophy’ not scripture. Scripture offers the most convincing reason to reject Pentecostalism. Any Christian that discourages study of God’s Word has a problem. And why can’t Christians discuss their doctrinal differences? Don't you want to discuss what you believe?
>>Such mistreatment of the scriptures, (If indeed I am correct in my assumptions) would negate any credibility for your argument. The much maligned "science" of Philosophy pre-requires No credibility either! and I'm sure you would do less damage to the eternal gospel which is easily understood to the non scripture wresters.<<
You have yet to show any “mistreatment of the scriptures”. And damage to the gospel? Pentecostalism does the damage - people rolling on the floor, running around uncontrolled, animal noises, ecstatic tongues, ‘demons’ screaming, endless laughter, snake handling, vomiting and nudity in healing meetings, going to the toilet, smashing chairs, kicking holes in the wall, etc. And yes, they all insist it was the ‘Holy Spirit’ and it’s all in the name of Jesus. Who needs cults, Pentecostalism does more damage and Christians get the reputation. Not to mention the damage done by so-called 'faith healers' and their failed endeavours. Such an emphasis on bodily healing distorts the gospel.
And Pentecostals "non-scripture wresters”? No, they claim revelation from God beyond Scripture. They belittle scripture with direct supernatural revelation, while boasting miracles to confirm it. They abandon the principle of Sola Scriptura. Their acceptance of modern prophecy is a ‘slap in the face’ to God’s Word.
>>By the way; snide comment does not become someone of your obvious intelligence. This is not snide: You are most probably blind and I sincerely pray that you come to the full knowledge of Christ or change your field of endeavor as I have suggested. Russell<<
You have been 'snide', calling me a 'bigot', 'illogical' and 'blind'. How does one ‘come to the full knowledge of Christ’ by studying 'philosophy? What strange logic! While I have differences with others doctrinally, I don't have the audacity to suggest they ‘go study philosophy’ and forget scripture. One who claims “the full knowledge of Christ” yet suggests that, needs a re-think.
His Reply -
>>The very way you twist my words is the same way you twist scripture to assume meaning that isn't there. I believe you ARE blind to the truth. and by the way I wasn't snide I was straight up front in calling a spade; a spade. I have no further need for you to communicate, But if you wish to have the last word. Go right ahead and indulge yourself!<<
Ok Russell sounds like your hurt. I'm sorry for hurting your feelings, I realise feelings are important to Pentecostals. They depend on feelings in their belief. I depend more on Scripture. But it goes both ways, why call those who differ with you - 'bigots', 'illogical' and 'blind'? Claiming they misunderstand before they even reply, that they 'twist scripture' without any example? Pointless rubbishing people you think are wrong, why not try to help them come to know the truth?
If you really believe you have the truth, then that would be easy, right? Or does your belief stand questioning? "If something's true it can stand to be questioned, if its not true it needs to be questioned". I can only go by what you say. Maybe some time in the future, I would love to hear from you. Take time, think, study, and pray. Don't launch into abuse and criticism, ask the Lord to open His Word, study it with me, and with patience. Trust Scripture not feelings, don't let experiences blind you to the truth.